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#359182 - 09/28/07 02:44 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
The 'putting the hard into the soft & the soft into the hard', (i.e. do sanchin with the softness of tensho and do tensho with the hardness of sanchin) is both simple & impossible. It's simple when you can finally do it and near impossible when you cannot. Anything less, according to Miyagi, was not good enough. My view and experience is that if you cannot do it 30 times out of 30, how can it be used in a fight? I am not sure if Miyagi was being overly modest, but either you've got it or you don't, there is no in-between. You cannot be almost pregnant.

Like the genius who put two knives together and invented scissors; now why didn't I think of that?
_________________________
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#359183 - 09/28/07 09:12 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
nahate Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 54
Loc: No VA suburbs of Wash DC
With all due respect you need to reread the article. Tensho is a kihon kata. It is not a classical kata. Nor does Giles sensei ever describe Tensho as "just another combat-technique specific kata." Quite the contrary. The more obvious techniques are not supported by the breathing and stepping patterns. That's part of its puzzle. It was developed by Miyagi from sources not clearly known. Some of those sources might underlie some of what you train and bear some similarities but they are not the same thing.

It is precisely because of its unique provenance that Miyagi's purpose in adding it to the Goju curriculum invites speculation. There are kihon kata, such as Sanchin, that supplemented by hojo undu and Gigsai katas inculcate elementary karate movement and kinesthetic awareness. There are the classical kata that use and apply that movement in combat-specific ways. These are the ones Miyagi insisted were the soul of Karate and could not be changed, even if the bunkai would not be widely disseminated but replaced by alternate and less lethal techniques for public consumption.

Tensho stands somewhere in between and Hopkins was speculating openly about the uses Miyagi had in mind and what he thought that Goju might have lacked that Tensho would supply.

While Hopkins never trained under Miyagi, (nor did you) his sensei and mine, Kimo Wall, trained under Seiko Higa, who trained a few years under Kanryo Higashionna and several decades under Miyagi. We don't know your forms. We do have an intimate and decades long relationship with Tensho. And the energy development and focus is not lost on us.

I was surprised in reading some works by voluminous researcher Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming and legendary Zheng Manqing that they eschewed the popular explanation of internal and external arts for a more direct and prosaic one. According to their classifications internal arts were those developed within China, external arts having their orign from outside. No need to divide between soft and hard, apart from emphasis they coexist in both the practice and theory of Chinese and Okinawan combatives.

It takes the fun out of mystic misunderstandings but it is probably more useful.

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#359184 - 09/28/07 09:18 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I share this reluctently as one of the best examples I've seen of hard into soft and soft into hard:

Yanqing Tui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85tdZYkMQWI

The sad thing is I did learn each technique being done, but alas, all were beyond my ability to move like this.

So is this basic or advanced? Is sanchin and tensho basic ore are they the keystone of destruction?

If you really want a study combine the study of Chinto with Seipai for a complete system unto itself, excpet that Naifanchi is the core of Chinto.

yin and yang - two sides of the same equation
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#359185 - 09/29/07 03:08 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: nahate]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...Hopkins was speculating openly about the uses Miyagi had in mind and what he thought that Goju might have lacked that Tensho would supply.

We do have an intimate and decades long relationship with Tensho. And the energy development and focus is not lost on us.





Thank you for your comment and welcome to the discussion; it's good to have someone who comes from a direct Miyagi line to throw some light on a difficult subject, but I do find the two statements above somewhat contradictary. Perhaps I am not reading it right.
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I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359186 - 09/29/07 03:29 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
That "Yangqing Tui" is a 'tui' set, meaning to train leg techniques. You will have to shed off quite a few of your Santa Claus pounds to be able to do that

Perhaps this may be shown for comparision?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

and this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU5CEfDLHPI


Nahate,

I would like to add the following quote from your comment as well, the edict function has lapsed,

Quote:

It was developed by Miyagi from sources not clearly known




Edited by ButterflyPalm (09/29/07 03:51 AM)
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359187 - 09/29/07 04:21 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Sorry to keep using up space, but the edict funcyion is way too fast,

how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkc4tGpPeuU
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359188 - 09/29/07 05:52 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Interesting choices but even though "Yangqing Tui" is for leg technique development, my choice was the intersection between hard and soft. It's a personal choice but I consider that performer superb.

Sadly the onset of my periodic arthritis 22 years ago took most of my kicking ability away. Contiuning pain is a great leveler in the end, but I drag myself on the floor for my students in the end, my pain is not their burden, after all pain is your body telling you you're alive.

"Yangqing Tui" history of its development is an interesting one. You can find it at Evolution of a form si lu beng da on http://formosaneijia.com/category/mantislong-fist/ including an early version of the form.

The 3rd Taiwan White Crane you posted is super!

Personally I'm not a crane person. Of course my students study a dragon form (the choice of my friend), and all know dragon munches on crane (GRIN).

Even more interesting is how many more great Chinese performances exist....


Edited by Victor Smith (09/29/07 06:09 AM)
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#359189 - 09/29/07 07:29 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Sorry to keep using up space, but the edict funcyion is way too fast,

how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkc4tGpPeuU




Indeed, as Victor statet 'superb'.
In my view the perfect example of hard and soft melting.

The sanchin kata as basic training kata is also the starting point for the next level. Higashionna and Miyagi in the beginning would teach next level sesan or sanseru or suparinpei. They all have the same opening sequence (Same in Uechi ryu). As such basic kata is the correct interpretation. The form Higashionna teached had combat application. Nowadays in Goju-ryu they are no longer investigated but return in the 3 other kata mentioned.

Tensho as basic training kata as Nahate stated, I disagree. In the view of JKF Goju-Kai it closes the sequence of kata. As I stated before, in this phylosophy you can start training with any kata you want, but you end training with tensho (close fist kata, heishu kata) to cool down, balance energy. All other kata, including sanchin, are open hand kata (kaishu kata) meaning that they are for training fighting technique.
I do have application for tensho but these are not the primary objectivs for tensho.

Other sects of Goju-ryu have different phylosophy about it.But most agree to the hard sanchin/soft tensho. Some say it is enough to train only sanchin and tensho to understand goju-ryu. I guess that the principle of hard and soft is meant not the curriculum of the entire style.


Edited by CVV (09/29/07 07:33 AM)

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#359190 - 09/29/07 07:42 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

The 'putting the hard into the soft & the soft into the hard', (i.e. do sanchin with the softness of tensho and do tensho with the hardness of sanchin) is both simple & impossible. It's simple when you can finally do it and near impossible when you cannot. Anything less, according to Miyagi, was not good enough. My view and experience is that if you cannot do it 30 times out of 30, how can it be used in a fight? I am not sure if Miyagi was being overly modest, but either you've got it or you don't, there is no in-between. You cannot be almost pregnant.

Like the genius who put two knives together and invented scissors; now why didn't I think of that?




Would that mean that every time you execute a form it is to it's near perfection and you never slip ???

I guess the statement was made in modesty but also to push himselve to keep reaching for the maximum. The 3 conflicts still conflict with each other, nomatter how many times you train it. In my feeling, some performances are better than other, done by the same person on different times.

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#359191 - 09/29/07 07:54 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

The 'putting the hard into the soft & the soft into the hard', (i.e. do sanchin with the softness of tensho and do tensho with the hardness of sanchin) is both simple & impossible. It's simple when you can finally do it and near impossible when you cannot. Anything less, according to Miyagi, was not good enough. My view and experience is that if you cannot do it 30 times out of 30, how can it be used in a fight? I am not sure if Miyagi was being overly modest, but either you've got it or you don't, there is no in-between. You cannot be almost pregnant.

Like the genius who put two knives together and invented scissors; now why didn't I think of that?



good point. and I agree.

There is a Shodo work hanging in our dojo, it's a quote of Miyagi's: "Hard and Soft are not separate principles."

however, you are wrong to say Tensho training is 'bunkai' based - that is to say, it's not trained the same as kaishu kata. However, Tensho does have general implied application. These 'base' application/skills are fundamental to hard/soft technique. It's taught as intrinsic skill building which is of course applied within applications of the other kaishu kata. The term I sometimes use for the intrinsic nature of such practice is 'economy of movement'.

when we are looking at forms such as the ones which were posted by you and Victor, we are really looking at economy of movement development...not particular application. yet it's economy is intrinsic to application. In that way, you could also say that Tensho and kaisu kata are not two separate forms.


maybe a point thats lost in article form, but not necessarily in the author's teaching.

confusing or clear as mud?

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