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#359162 - 08/30/07 09:51 PM Sanchin versus Tensho
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Just did a search on Sanchin and Tensho (and I have thrown a Tensho and Tai Chi ringer in the group), thought some might enjoy watching.

Sanchin kata, performed by 4 martial arts masters
The styles are IOGKF Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Chinese White Crane system


Sanchin Test -

Fujian White Crane

Sanchin breaking

Tensho Shito Ryu

Tensho Kata by Hichiya Yoshio

Onmyouza - Homura no tori~Houyoku-tensho
Onmyouza - Madonna tachi no lullaby

Oyama Tensho

Kata Tensho seigokan championship 2006

SANCHIN-TENSHO - Meibukan Goju-ryu de Meitoku Yagui

Chinen Shinzo Sensei performing Tensho
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#359163 - 08/31/07 04:08 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Thank you for the link!

Very interesting.

The 4 Sanchins side by side alone is very cool.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#359164 - 08/31/07 08:00 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: cxt]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Ditto! Does anyone know the names of the presenters?


The 4 Sanchins side by side alone is very cool.

#359165 - 08/31/07 08:15 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
from the youtube comments...

left to right:

Morio Higaonna - Goju ryu
Shinryu Gushi - Uechi ryu
Two Chinese White Crane masters from Fujian province

#359166 - 09/01/07 06:18 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ed_Morris]
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
Wow. Thanks a million!

You mentioned sometime back that you had developed a method for specific searching on YouTube, Video.Google, and the like. Would it be possible for you to share?

In either event, thanks for the link you provide. Always nice to see something new and different.
Formerly Vash

#359167 - 09/02/07 11:35 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'Sanchin kata, performed by 4 martial arts masters
The styles are IOGKF Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Chinese White Crane system '

this was the climax and a very rare event for many at the 50th anviversary of karate in the UK, recently held by Wingrove Sensei, I had the absolute pleasure of a superb weekends training and got to witness this demonstration live.

I would recomend next year to anyone seriously interested in classical okinawan/chinese/japanese martial arts.

full details here -
Jim Neeter

#359168 - 09/24/07 10:18 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: shoshinkan]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Excellent collection. Thanks. Neither kata is in "my style" but I recently learned a Ryuku Kenpo Sanchin (close to our style) for its energy and historical interests. At Budo camp this week, someone was giving me some reasons why I "Had" to learn Tensho and he did it quickly for me a few times. Seeing it done well slowly and in a variety of styles answers a lot of questions. Not only did you provide the link, but you screened out a lot of unhelpful demonstrations in the process so thanks.
The older I get, the better I was!

#359169 - 09/24/07 11:43 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: underdog]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

...someone was giving me some reasons why I "Had" to learn Tensho

I am sure we are all interested to know the 'reasons'?


Seeing it done well slowly and in a variety of styles answers a lot of questions...

Here again what are the 'questions' and 'answers'?
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

#359170 - 09/25/07 10:25 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I was told that if I practiced this kata a million times, that I would never have a problem countering an attack... that built into it's moves were all the essential counters. The person telling me this studied primarily Tai Chi. He demonstrated the kata a couple of times for me at high speed, not study or performance speed. Having no knowledge of the kata, I could not dispute his claim but only listened with interest and put the kata on my "to do" list to learn more about it. The thread was amazingly well timed, because when I came back from my weekend study, I discovered it.
The older I get, the better I was!

#359171 - 09/26/07 04:52 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: underdog]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Well, any kata done a million times will have the same effect, IF, the effect one is looking for is just to not having a problem countering an attack.

The Tensho kata (like the Sanchin kata) is more than that, fortunately.

First of all let's go back to the article by Giles Hopkins on the historical influences shaping early Okinawan karate, in particular Goju Ryu, (the subject of discussion in another thread) it was mentioned that Chojun Miyagi (at the meeting of masters back in the 1930s to decide the future and direction of Okinawan karate) was most adamant that the classical kata, in particular the Tensho, should not be altered at all when new kata were made or re-hashed to spread Okinawan karate to the masses, in particular to school children. Miyagi however had no objection in re-hashing the other kata. The insightful question that Hopkins asked was what was so special about Tensho? why would changing or re-hashing it was such an unacceptable proposition to Miyagi?

Hopkins surmised that Tensho was actually a "one-handed" or rather single-palmed combat system within Goju's curriculum (Tensho is afterall 99% palm) and therefore it's unique feature should not be tampered with and he (Hopkins) went on to show some one-handed bunkai taken (he claimed) from Tensho.

With the greatest respect to Hopkins, I disagree. Some might consider my disagreement objectionable as I do not do any karate system; but as we are dealing with the possible southern CMA's historical influence on the fundamental technical aspects of Goju Ryu, my perspective as a CMA practitioner (I've done, among others, '5 Ancestors' or in the Hokien dialect "Ngo Cho" back in the early 1970s) is actually quite material, as 5 Ancestors seems to have so much in common with Goju.

If, therefore, as Hopkins said, Tensho is just another combat-technique specific kata, why was Miyagi so adamant in not tampering with it, when he had no objection at all in tampering with the other combat-technique specific kata? Miyagi, according to Hopkins, actually said there were 'secrets' in there. Well, does it mean there were no 'secrets' in the other kata and so one can mangle them up in any way one like? And afterall what was so secretive about fighting with one palm?; some people might even consider it silly to fight with only one palm, as Hopkins himself admits there were physio-mechanical problems with generating enough striking power when using only one palm in both blocking and striking as shown in his illustrations.

The reason why Miyagi said no to changing anything in Tensho was because Tensho was an internal-energy (Chi Kung) training kata (also found in other CMA systems, in particular its closest cousin or ancestor the 5 Ancestors System) and changing anything in it would have destroyed the fundamental energy-training basis of the kata.

I am not here looking for students so please don't get the wrong idea, but to truly understand why and HOW internal-energy training is found in Tensho and why Miyagi was so hard on this and the 'secrets' he mentioned, someone would have to train with me for say a year or so then it all becomes clear. Hopkins, with the greatest respect to him, had never trained under Miyagi and was not aware of this area and so (with all good intentions) had no choice but to supplant and graft combat-specific techniques onto Tensho and possibly mislead a whole generation or two of Goju practitioners.

In another thread where we saw 4 masters (karate/White Crane) doing Sanchin together on stage? it surprised me why the masters from White Crane chose to do an absolutely beginner's Form from 5 Ancestors, something one learns on the first day at a 5 Ancestors School, and not one of the more advanced truly Sanchin Forms to show-case the System. Perhaps those Forms are too long and so may not fit in with the timing of the karate Sanchin performances; ironically it was the karate fellow who took the longest and the rest have to stand around sheepishly waiting for him.
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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