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#358196 - 08/23/07 06:13 PM Gradings and Doboks
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Hello.
A few post about gradings going on so how about the idea of no gradings at all just training?Or if there are gradings make them more like BJJ where you actualy prove your worth.?
Would that improve TKD and kill off McDojos or make no difference?
Where does the history of grading begin in TKD?
It started in the military so were they grading then or just training?
Did gradings come out of the arts TKD was influenced by?

And also I was reading an interview of an old Korean instuctor in the armyin the 50's and how they trained in military gear not Doboks.Makes more sense especialy for some techniques like the turning kick which were designed for steel boots hence toes back..ball of foot...which with boots on turns to nice small hard striking surface.Also its closer to clothes you would wear.
So how about no Doboks too?
Where did Doboks come into TKD and do they have any use ?
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#358197 - 08/23/07 06:25 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: matxtx]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Wearing a dobok or not wearing a dobok I don't think will affect change anything. And who decide what actually is worth it to pass? If you have a substandard Instructor then you will have substandard students. If that systems is based upon the Instructor's skills then if they meet his requirements would not they still be worth it? In that system?

If it were up to me I would do away with testing and perhaps belts as well. Testing I believe should be in class and done where you don't have time to prepare but are called upon out of the blue to perform said techniques. If you can repeatedly do this then you advance whether it is a belt or an acknowledgment or just moving on to the next set of techniques. No prearranged test or belt is going to make you effective at protecting yourself or being able to perform techniques. Application and using them will and I don't need a belt to do that.

I'd rather not have a uniform either and would prefer what is comfortable to wear. However I understand standards and accept that.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#358198 - 08/23/07 06:53 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Hello. A few post about gradings going on so how about the idea of no gradings at all just training?Or if there are gradings make them more like BJJ where you actualy prove your worth.? Would that improve TKD and kill off McDojos or make no difference? Where does the history of grading begin in TKD? It started in the military so were they grading then or just training? Did gradings come out of the arts TKD was influenced by? And also I was reading an interview of an old Korean instuctor in the armyin the 50's and how they trained in military gear not Doboks.Makes more sense especialy for some techniques like the turning kick which were designed for steel boots hence toes back..ball of foot...which with boots on turns to nice small hard striking surface.Also its closer to clothes you would wear. So how about no Doboks too? Where did Doboks come into TKD and do they have any use ?




TKD DoBoks come from it roots, which is Karate. In the military, many taught & trained in DoBoks as well as uniforms. GM Rhee Ki Ha was in the military & rarely wore a military uniform, as he was picked to teach. I have historic photos with training in DoBoks, which were more like Karate Gis back then.
The gradings also came from the Karate roots. Yes they did test in the military & if you look at Gen. Choi's textbooks, they contain the military training & testing regiment. He was in charge of TKD training for the military.
The training in the military started in the fall of 1954, with the establishment of the Oh Do Kwan. At that time, when they saluted, they said Tae Kwon.

I like the example of testing students in class, without notice. This has all been ruined in TKD & other MAs as well, by the commercialism. Having real tests requiring students to prove themselves would help TKD training & kill of McDojangs. jmho

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#358199 - 08/23/07 07:40 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: ITFunity]
Andymcc Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Rochester NY, USA
Doboks: My feelings is they are very necessary. Something about putting that dobok on, it puts you "in the role"... if we all were just out there in our sweat pants, not only would it not look good, but it would reduce the formalization of the class and add an element of casualness. When we put our doboks on we assume the role in our minds. I think it is an important part of training in a class, a mental part.

GRADINGS: I do think this is also important. Years ago there was a local school here called "American Martial Arts" and I knew somebody who trained there for a few years. There was no belts, it was just training. They did not do well commercially and went under after a while. I have no idea of the quality of instruction there, although we all know that a school often does not succeed or fail based on quality of instruction. But from what I could tell, having no belts was like going to school but having no grades. I think everybody needs to feel they can idnentify with a level, they have a tangible "reward" for achieving a level, and I think this motivates many people, sadly sometimes even more than the skill behind what that belt represents.
So, there is good and bad that comes with belts, but ultimately I think it is not something that can be done away with. Just my thoughts.


Edited by Andymcc (08/23/07 08:03 PM)

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#358200 - 08/23/07 08:16 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: Dereck]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Quote:

Testing I believe should be in class and done where you don't have time to prepare but are called upon out of the blue to perform said techniques. If you can repeatedly do this then you advance whether it is a belt or an acknowledgment or just moving on to the next set of techniques.




Way back when, the late 70's I believe (before I started), I was told my GM had a method closer to this. You didn't have a formal test, but there were ranks. Everyone had their name on a plaque on the wall arranged by rank. One day you would come in and just notice your plaque had been moved up. I like it from a purely MA point of view. But, that kind of system tends to lose more business. ( at least from what I've seen with American attitudes ) People want those structures and colors and goals to feel they're progressing.(and I guess to gauge if they're progressing faster/slower than the guy next to them) Just seems to promote slightly higher student retention... talking business here. I hate it, but you have to balance the two; not an easy task sometimes.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#358201 - 08/24/07 01:31 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Hi ITFUnity.
Do you know what typical grading,say a 1st Dan grading,consisted of back then when they were in the military?
Also do you know how a typical lesson went?

Yes.I like the idea of on the spot 'gradings'.
I dont like the way people teach and correct the body motion just in terms of getting the next grading and getting marks in a grade.

The Doboks I dont think matter much.
I can see how they get you into the feeling of doing TKD though I dont think they should be needed to do that.You should be ready to intensly explode and fight back at anytime, anywhere.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#358202 - 08/24/07 08:19 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
There was almost daily practice. Training emphasized forging & conditioning. The fighting was tough & for 1st dan you needed 8 patterns, ChonJi to HwaRang. The test included 3, 2 & 1 step sparring, power (breaking) & fighting, along with SD & foot technique sparring. This is circ early 1960s.
Please remember that training & testing varied by Kwans. However, much of the military training was overseen by Gen. Choi & the Oh Do Kwan, with Nam tae Hi assting as the director. He made it to the rank of Colonel. Only one other Oh Do Kwan member made it to general. That was Gen Woo Jong Lim. This was because of the eventual political interference caused by the miltary coup in 1961. Only the rank of the Oh Do kwan & Chung Do kwan was accepted without a re-test, which was the source of many problems politically between the Kwans & the leaders.
Ji Do Kwan test was made up of 3 & 1 steps, breaking, forms & a lot of fighting. It was said that they had to beat 3 champions to promote. That is why they claim that many of the early best Korean fighters were from the Ji Do kwan. These members were very influential in setting up the current fighting rules adopted by the WTF.
The aforementioned Gen Woo Jong Lim was responsible for the ITF tournament rules.

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#358203 - 08/26/07 12:37 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
By conditioning I pressume you mean of knuckles etc AND fitness?
Fitness is another thing overlooked in McDojos.Well I guess everything over looked haha.

How come no Choong-Mu?Or do you mean as well as.

Do you know what the sparring/fighting rules were?
If it was full contact,were low kicks allowed etc.

Was there much padwork or bagwork?
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#358204 - 08/26/07 02:30 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I think gradings with regulation doboks are important. If it was left as an open affair you'd risk it turning into a fashion show, distracting for the examiner and potentially disheartening for those students who can't afford the flashy gear.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#358205 - 08/26/07 05:09 PM Re: Gradings and Doboks [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

By conditioning I pressume you mean of knuckles etc AND fitness?
How come no Choong-Mu?Or do you mean as well as.
Do you know what the sparring/fighting rules were?
If it was full contact,were low kicks allowed etc.
Was there much padwork or bagwork?




By conditioning & FORGING that is what I mean - plus the knocking exercises, where you bang your arms, legs, shins & hands together with a partner.
Since in the early days, there were only 8 Gup levels, so they only went up to HwaRang. ChoongMu, the 2nd pattern desined, after HwaRang, with the help of Col. Nam Tae Hi, was then performed at the BB level.
I am not sure what the sparring rules were. I think they were very similiar to the Karate stop matches. At some point, the Jido Kwan went to the full contact, with the vests & contiuous fighting. I am not sure of when the ITF fighting rules were implemented, but they were created by Gen Woo Jong Lim.
Pad (crude pads) use was I think used in training, but I am not sure of the tests.

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