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#358073 - 08/23/07 02:35 PM How to study pressure points
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
My very first introduction to pressure points was from my first martial arts school. We were taught the TW 3 point to facilitate a wrist grab release transitioning into a kotegashi takedown. This was in an International TKD school and it was part of the memorized kumite that we had. We were not told the name of the point, only that it was a pressure point. It was not a "pressure point" oriented school at the colored belt ranks.

In my humble opinion, this was appropriate. With or without the name of the point, pressure point use for tuite or grappling is fine and is probably taught somewhat incidentally or parenthetically in many schools, just as the TW 3 point was taught to me originally. The pressure points just loosen things up and help these maneuvers work better and I'd bet my next donut binge that there are a lot of excellent general martial arts practitioners out there who are using lots of pressure points for these purposes without necessarily being aware that they are doing so. They just put their hand "here" or put pressure "here" because things work better. Joints loosen, pain is instilled, leverage is better, whatever: things just work better.

In my present school, in the lower ranks, I was taught some pressure points for arm destructions, and some pressure points for grappling situations, again without a lot of attention to the name of the points. The pressure point use was inextricably connected to the best way to do the particular techniques. Again, many practitioners know these same things without there being a focus on it being "pressure point" related. We are taught to "Hit here, it hurts".

Now comes KOs- and this is where I take the pulpit. It seems a lot of people want to do KOs. They are fun to do. They are practical. The arguement in favor says that if you can KO an aggressor without harming him, and get away safely, you'll have less chance of a law suit, vs defending yourself by physically harming, permanently harming, or killing the perpetrator. You should not aspire or attempt to do KOs without instruction.

In my personal experience, I was required to be a black belt first before I could officially study Kyusho specifically and attempt approved KOs. I'm guessing that black belts were thought to be trustworthy enough to practice responsibly, to have the required striking skills, and to have the requisite karate skills for which the pressure point study would be helpful.

When my school joined Kyusho International, that changed a little. Under ranks could study Kyusho, but only via a very directed course of study and with close supervision by approved instructors. These pressure point/Kyusho classes were separate from the regular classes so that there would be some control for supervision and safety. Kyusho in general, and KO practice in particular can be dangerous.

My reason for this post is to respond to what appears to be a large number of young practitioners who want to learn how to do KOs with no supervision. Please don't. I regard Kyusho/pressure point study as an advanced refinement of karate skills that are already fairly well developed. Please if you are in the colored belt ranks, work with your instructor on what you should be learning and when. If you want to learn pressure points/Kyusho, find a qualified instructor. I recommend Kyusho International first because it works for me and I have confidence in the people. If you checked that web site and don't find anything near you, then try DKI, HKI, DSI, Rick Clark and other reputable people around the world. If you and a group MUST study alone, KI has a program for that. PLEASE!!! Do not study from youtube video clips or others, without some kind of organized instruction. Then use the forum to ask additional questions, to share ideas and results in addition to regular instruction.
_________________________
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#358074 - 10/11/07 11:43 AM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: underdog]
Aeras Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Colorado
Amen.
_________________________
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashions."- G.K. Chesterton

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#358075 - 11/07/07 07:55 PM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: Aeras]
Mjolnir73 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 11
The allure of pressure points is hard to ignore, especially for the young. Most wish to learn all of the more particular points, such as KO points, just to know and be able to exploit them. Who doesn't, though?

But you make a good point. Unsupervised studies or practice of pressure point manipulation can lead to not only injury, but a lack of comprehension and respect of how dangerous it can be.
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#358076 - 01/16/08 09:15 PM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: underdog]
winterwarrior Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 19
My opinion on the ko's is thus. It is nice to be able to do it. But with many of the point combinations the dangers associated with a synecope knockout, which is the effect many knock outs produce, out weigh the practical benefits. I see instructors knocking people at seminars using points that can cause plaque to break off arteries years later and cause damage. Way too risky.

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#358077 - 01/17/08 01:28 AM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: winterwarrior]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
If you want to study PP, start by studying Shiatsu/Tsubojutsu and other healing arts.

It is quite irresponsible to strike people and knock them out. There is no way to be certain they will get back up.
One of the things you will learn in Shiatsu is what kind of patients to not perform the technique on. They do not teach these things in the "knockout seminars". Hit someone with a heart murmer, blood clots or any other cardio pulmonary disorder the right way at the right time and thier dead. You can tell the jury you only meant to knock him out and didn't know he had a heart condition, but I doubt it would matter. Plus, there are so many people walking around with undaignosed conditions who are yet asymptomatic. Get one of these people and knock them out at a seminar and you tirn your mat into a crime scene.

Studying the healing arts is the safest way to learn and teach these things.

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#358078 - 01/17/08 01:35 AM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I remember when I was 16 and training in the backyard with one of my slightly younger dojo mates.

We asked Sensei to teach us pressure point techniques like those we read about in a magazine. He said: No way. you guys are too young and foolish. I don't remember his exact words, but it turns out he was right.

Since he wouldn't teach us, we decided to teach ourselves. So into the backyard we went - hitting each other all over the place asking "did that hurt? did that hurt? did that make you dizzy? Most of the times it didn't really do much. Other times it really hurt a lot and other times we fell down. Luckily no KO's though. That would have turned out really bad.

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#358079 - 02/03/09 06:32 PM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: underdog]
Landus Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
I myself am going to be 19 in a week and have a bit of an allure for pressure points. I suppose it spawns from films or the idea of power, control. I wouldn't go as far to start poking my friend (LOL, the girlfriend wouldn't be happy) but if I see videos and can see the point, I become curious and experiment on myself; but with lots of caution. I also want to learn the healing side of pressure points and hope to gain some sort of instruction in my area with pps soon.

I totally agree that pps shouldn't be practiced on others after seeing it in a video, or any other forms of media for that matter.

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#358080 - 02/27/09 02:34 AM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: Landus]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
wish I hadnt got tired of looking at my old post on PP in grappling sitting there doing nada.

For once i'll try to be brief and please I mean no offense to other styles, this is simply my opinion and can be ignored as easily as any other post I place.

PP tactics to "Knock Out" an individual is (just deleted some negativity) so freakin dangerous that those teaching such really should limit PP instruction to a very few points (like 3), from what ive seen the "Knockout" comes from what is called sealing the breath or sealing the arteries in Chin Na and all these PP fall into the Dim Mak category. At least a good Chin Na instructor waits a long time before these are taught and they also teach how to heal what has been done before death.

The general feeling I receive (opinion only) is a caviler "You too can learn hidden mysteries to defeat anyone". Chin Na been round long time, its no mystery.
Its a fast out for kids (folks too immature) with no control of technique or temper, to strike to hard and seal the breath then 5 min later a father or son is dead or vegetative. that is why much of what is now taught on "Cruise the Caribbean and learn to accidentally turn a person into a carrot (or radish, kale, heck pick a veggi)" was Hidden.

As my mother is basically a Brussels sprout in a skilled Nursing Facility I feel free to say there are fates worse than death, and a week long seminar on a Cruise Ship (read floating meat market) to those who can PAY is a recipe for Sezchuan string-bean...but the jinn is out the bottle.

as for no touch knockouts...a stone works much better
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#358081 - 02/27/09 01:46 PM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Sorry about your mother. I lost the connnection to martial arts though. Sorry.

I agree that there are bad martial arts instructors around and they teach the gamut of styles and skills including pressure points. I agree that bad martial arts instrustors can be dangerous and I believe this is true regardless of the style or skill set they are teaching.

Beyond that, I started to loose you. Did you go on a bad cruise ship conference on pressure points and Qin-na? I'm unfamiliar with the teaching slogan "You too can learn hidden mysteries to defeat anyone". You must have someone specific in mind.

Who was it? Do you have an instructor you would prefer to endorce? Usually affirming endorcements are more helpful than negative, maybe due to the large numbers of inferior instructors compared to the truly great. Still, if you had such a bad experience, knowing who you are talking about could be helpful in guiding people about what to avoid.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#358082 - 02/27/09 04:53 PM Re: How to study pressure points [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Sorry I seemed to have strayed off point.

most every style has a form of Chin Na, Chin Na techniques as part of its system as Chin Na predates most asian MA, There is no specific endorsement to Instructor, The Police seminars on empty hand (or boot) PP or a use of Asp to strike PP was conducted over a month and run by a Chin Na Inst who was great and emphasized the dangers in PP strikes esp those all those not in forearm/hand or mid femur to foot.

As to the the Cruise thing, there is an ad posted in my old Dojo, seems a certified school is running a KO PP class on a cruise liner, It seemed like such an idiosyncratic idea to be on a Leisure cruise to learn potentially fatal or brain damaging techniques, and I believe I did see the words 'demystify' and 'previously secret', that just stuck in my mind.

sorry for the negativity, I would endorse Chin Na instructors with much experience and maturity.

uh, yeah, thanks for the word for my mom, havent known her as 'her' for 30+ years. I Think my negativity was a reflex reaction to potentially brain damaging someone vs. killing them (I know odd dichotomy), your post has helped me see that. Thank you.

hope i brought it back to MA training
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