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#358039 - 09/28/07 01:08 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: hedkikr]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
You come across as very condescending, but I suspect you mean well. While I have not yet visited Japan, I am well aware of my limitations in this area.

I am fortunate enough to have spent the last decade training under a gentlemen who lived in Japan for a decade and has been practicing MJER for more than 25 years. We are well connected with Japan through the Dojo at which my sensei trained in Chiba. It is as good a training enviornment as there is this side of the Pacific.

While I agree that living and training in Japan is the ideal scenario, I disagree that it is the only way to reach a high level in any particular koryu martial art. Nor is living in Japan sufficient. Proper understanding does not come through geography, but through quality Jikiden instruction and many many years of hard work. Mind, I'm not saying that koryu JSAs should or even can be divorced from the culture in which they were created, but I am saying that good quality instruction can be had outside of Japan. The key is to find genuinely high quality instruction with good solid ties back to Japan.

Will this kind of training give you a deeper understanding of the Japanese psyche? Probably not a much deeper understanding, but maybe a little. But then, that's not really what I'm after.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#358040 - 09/28/07 01:38 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: Charles Mahan]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I don't agree that I'm coming off as condescending. I'm stating cultural POV's. Is it condescending when a football coach cuts a player & tells him that he doesn't have what it takes? No it is what it is.

I'm NOT even saying you (or any of your fellow Iaido-ka) don't have what it takes. I'm not even saying that you need to train in Japan to become proficient in your chosen MA.

What I'm saying (& this ties to the original point of this thread) is that unless you've been immersed in Japanese culture, you won't really know it. As you said, you have a basic understanding & a greater appreciation of Japanese culture compared to the average MA due to your traditional training. And since that's not your goal in your training, it doesn't really matter. You'll still benefit from your training.

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#358041 - 09/28/07 01:59 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: fatguy]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Quote:

Quote:

Ive been considering it more and more lately. Im in love with the ocean...wish I had gotten into marine biology or oceanography instead of realestate, oh well. Some sort of ocean creature, like a Mantis Shrimp or something might be cool...I just gotta make sure there is little detail because I dont want it blurry when its shrunk...I would need something crisp, a simple design...





hmm... maybe a wave then? thats a simple squiggly line




LOL!! That would deffinately work...One of the Mon I was first looking at look live waves...if i take a lunch today ill get the orderform we were given and scan it and upload it so you can all see the different Mon. Its not all of them by any means, from my understanding alot of the Mon were not listed because they were ones used by Christians...
_________________________
-Dave-

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#358042 - 09/29/07 01:28 AM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: PsychoDave]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
PsychoDave

You might also check some books on Japanese hearaldry and symbolism----they often contain generic dipictions of things like the sea or water or waves (and a host of other motifs) that would have the "look" your going for without too much specific meaning attached to specific clans/people.

Just a thought.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#358043 - 09/29/07 06:22 AM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: hedkikr]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

I don't agree that I'm coming off as condescending.




You don't have to, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Quote:

I'm stating cultural POV's. Is it condescending when a football coach cuts a player & tells him that he doesn't have what it takes? No it is what it is.




Being condescending is not necessarily about what you say, but instead about how you say it. Things like this:

Quote:


Americans have a habit of doing any damn thing they want, often disregarding the others' feelings/opinions

So unless you have an ingrained appreciation for Japanese culture & history (& I don't mean you can count to 10 in Japanese during your Krotty lessons), I don't think your opinion carries much weight

did you simply disappear because you got opinions that conflicted w/ yours

glad to see that you're now thinking on a deeper level than simple cosmetics.

I'll describe it in terms you may understand




To me (and apparently some others) they do sound condescending. Whether or not you have a point, you could make it without taking the attitude demonstrated above.

Just my opinion.

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#358044 - 09/29/07 01:51 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: splice]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Have I stated anything that was untrue?

Have I leveled any personal insults like "you're stupid for not comprehending how other cultures think"?

Have I stated that because I've had the benefit of living within 2 cultures, I'm somehow better than any one else?

No,No & No.

Everyone has an expertise or insight that another person will not have. By pointing it out, it's not a measure of quality, just information that should be considered.

If you FEEL like this is condescending, I suspect you need to look into your self-esteem. How does anyone learn their MA if they can't bear to be corrected?

Has PC come so far that if ANYONE FEELS like another is being condescending & they get their feelings hurt, it's the other person's fault?

Man-up. I've grown tired of nearly 50yrs of misconceptions about "Orientals". I try to educate people about the differences - & not in a "mine is better, yours is worse" fashion - so non-Asians can better understand & appreciate Asians.

If you don't believe that around the world, Americans are considered arrogant, than you're blind. Where do you think the term "Ugly American" came from?

I don't need to validate my patriotism but whenever I go to a foreign country, I try to represent my country in the best light possible. I never demand American-style amenities or expect them to speak English & I always eat everything they offer. I remain humble & try to be aware of the local social graces. By keeping my eyes & ears open, I learn to appreciate the ways of other cultures.

If you've never been told this, I'm glad you had the opportunity to read my posts. But if your feelings got hurt because you felt I'm condescending, too bad you wasted your time.

owari

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#358045 - 09/29/07 10:36 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: hedkikr]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Although it may very well be true that post world war II gave Americans the image of disrespectful ogres, and no one is denying that many cultures around the world still see America as that, you say:

Quote:

Man-up. I've grown tired of nearly 50yrs of misconceptions about "Orientals". I try to educate people about the differences - & not in a "mine is better, yours is worse" fashion - so non-Asians can better understand & appreciate Asians.




you understand misconceptions and try to correct them... thats cool with me... but then you say:

Quote:

Americans have a habit of doing any damn thing they want, often disregarding the others' feelings/opinions




completely contradicting yourself by stating a stereotype while you fight to end stereotypes of Asian descendants.

Quote:

If you FEEL like this is condescending, I suspect you need to look into your self-esteem. How does anyone learn their MA if they can't bear to be corrected?




we lost the topic of MA and moved to a topic of shear etiquette. Its not about self-esteem and your not really correcting anything, merely announcing a stereotype of a nature that you yourself said you try to correct in other people.

However, I feel this topic has moved too far from Sword arts and more into a simple poor choice in words which caused offense.

And although, being both young and Caucasian, I may not fully understand the level of racial stereotypical abuse you may have had hedkikr, I do understand what your talking about.

I simply caution that two wrongs don't make a right.
_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#358046 - 09/29/07 10:55 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: splice]
chingei Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 61
Quote:

Quote:

I don't agree that I'm coming off as condescending.




You don't have to, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Quote:

I'm stating cultural POV's. Is it condescending when a football coach cuts a player & tells him that he doesn't have what it takes? No it is what it is.




Being condescending is not necessarily about what you say, but instead about how you say it. Things like this:

Quote:


Americans have a habit of doing any damn thing they want, often disregarding the others' feelings/opinions

So unless you have an ingrained appreciation for Japanese culture & history (& I don't mean you can count to 10 in Japanese during your Krotty lessons), I don't think your opinion carries much weight

did you simply disappear because you got opinions that conflicted w/ yours

glad to see that you're now thinking on a deeper level than simple cosmetics.

I'll describe it in terms you may understand




To me (and apparently some others) they do sound condescending. Whether or not you have a point, you could make it without taking the attitude demonstrated above.

Just my opinion.






Some good points there.

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#358047 - 09/30/07 08:41 AM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: chingei]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
hedkikr, everything you say is about how you're right and how what you say is true. I would argue your statement about not being insulting but it doesn't really matter.

Again, you can be right but still be condescending. You haven't changed my opinion.

At any rate I did what I could to help answer Psychodave's question and I don't really have much reason to reply further. Have a good one.

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#358048 - 09/30/07 02:01 PM Re: Samurai Mon [Re: splice]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Aaaah, the virtues of youth...light in life experiences but heavy in opinions.

Maybe you'll understand in 20 yrs.

BTW, if you really understood, the subject centered around a non-Japanese considering doing something I believed would be in poor taste or uninformed. I would have done the same if a Japanese proposed doing something that had the same conotation in America.

So it's not a simple issue of contradiction (although on the surface it might appear so). If you were able to see deeper, you'd see this. My general comment about Americans because I was addressing Americans. My personal experiences regarding were specific. I noted that you train in a traditional JSA dojo. I wonder if you had any discussions w/ your Japanese Sensei. Just ask.

Ask what Japanese may feel about a Gaijin adopting a kamon for personal reasons.

Ask his feelings regarding the bastardization of ttraditional JSA.

Ask him if Americans/Europeans have difficulty understanding Japanese culture/mind/soul.

You think you have it all together & any opinion that upsets your view of the world is condescending. (and yes, I meant that sentence to be condescending). Grow up & don't get your feelings hurt so much. (that was condescending too)

Have a good one.

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