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#357782 - 11/12/07 05:50 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: Angharad_Rhydd]
Xaith Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 101
Loc: Indiana
This Saturday one of Hartsell's students, Jason Winkle, is leading a charity JKD seminar in Hartsell's honor. The proceeds are going to Hartsell's wife, Debra. It will be at Indiana University in Bloomington. There should be more information at iub.edu~martial

I never trained with Larry Hartsel, but I have trained with Jason Winkle, and he is one of the best instructors I've encountered, always in very high demand since he left his teaching post at West Point.

I also understand Winkle will be teaching Hartsell's JKD curriculum, but I don't know how that specifically will differ.

I know this is pretty late notice, but it's a good cause, and the instruction should be top notch, if anybody is in the area, they should try to make it. I'll be driving over an hour to be there, and I know others travelling even further.

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#357783 - 11/12/07 07:16 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: Xaith]
Xaith Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 101
Loc: Indiana
I left out a crucial "/" in that address, and the information is a bit buried. Here the text of the announcement:

"As many of you know, Sifu Larry Hartsell passed away this Summer. To assist his family during this time of mourning and recovery, Sifu Winkle will be putting on a charity seminar to help raise money for the family.
It will be a 4 hour seminar (with an additional hour break in the middle) that will cover the JKD Grappling Association curriculum in honor of Sifu Hartsell.


November 17th
10am-3pm (That's 1000-1500, Jason)
Indiana University
HPER Room 169
$40 (ALL proceeds go to the Hartsell family)
Any donations above and beyond the cost of the seminar are appreciated.
Topic: JKD Grappling Assoc curriculum"

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#357784 - 11/14/07 05:44 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: Angharad_Rhydd]
Monsterman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/16/07
Posts: 6
I know I'm kinda late here, but c'mon. I mean, Sifu Hartsell was...and still is more underrated than the Gracies, and he's probably a better grappler too!

This really is sad, I wanted to learn from him.

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#357785 - 11/19/07 04:03 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: Monsterman]
jasoned1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 4
Monsterman,
You are right. He knew all the sport technician skills as the Gracies, but combined with his combat/street/dirty fighting skills, he is a much better fighter......plus his conditioning of his bones makes every hold feel like steel against your body....it hurts.

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#357786 - 11/19/07 04:32 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: jasoned1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


He knew all the sport technician skills as the Gracies, but combined with his combat/street/dirty fighting skills, he is a much better fighter





With all due respect to you (and Mr Hartsell), this kind of statement is pure speculation. I'm sure that Mr. Hartsell was an excellent fighter in his day, but to say that he was better than any of the Gracie's (or "sport" fighters in general) is to seriously downplay what they have accomplished, don't you think?

Rickson Gracie??! Come on now. Doesn't HE deserve some love or what?!


-John

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#357787 - 11/20/07 01:19 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: JKogas]
jasoned1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 4
I didnt say he was better than all "sports fighters", I was responding about the Gracies (in my opinion)....it is always speculation to do hypothetical matchups....and even in real contest, the better fighter doesnt always win. But Larry Hartsell was much more diversified than most people realize. And his toughness factor in his prime, was absurd. Needless to say, I was giving the due respect to Larry, not trying to start a pointless argument.

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#357788 - 11/20/07 11:15 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: jasoned1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I didnt say he was better than all "sports fighters", I was responding about the Gracies (in my opinion)





Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.


Quote:


...it is always speculation to do hypothetical matchups





I couldn't agree more.



Quote:

...and even in real contest, the better fighter doesnt always win.





Now thats got me curious as to your line of reasoning. How often would you say that the better fighter DOES win? What is instrumental in the inferior fighter winning?


Quote:


But Larry Hartsell was much more diversified than most people realize. And his toughness factor in his prime, was absurd. Needless to say, I was giving the due respect to Larry, not trying to start a pointless argument.





No it's all good bro. I realize the man was tough. My brother in law was a student of his for several years WAY back in the day (Charlotte NC).

Personally I wasn't really that impressed with "JKD grappling", etc. I mean, we've come a LONG way since then...in MY opinion.

-John

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#357789 - 11/21/07 11:14 AM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: JKogas]
jasoned1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 4
How often does the better fighter win.......very tricky....
1. It depends on how much better, let's face it.
2. It depends on each fighter's styles and focus (as of course Sigun Bruce's most famous quote ever mentions).
I've never met a fighter who is 100% complete in all skills, since it's virtually impossible. But I've met plenty of fighters who do a great job of defending their weakest areas.....and that's the difference.
But matchups can be critical....

3. Stupid Luck. Sorry to upset those fighters out there who dont want to hear it, but since true fighting is not a sport and a certain element of rawness occurs, even the best trained fighters sometimes get into bad situations by random luck. And I dont want to hear anyone disagree to this point....you havent fought enough if you dont think so!

*Your last statement of JKD Grappling is outdated.....That's a unfair comment to make. Every form is always evolving and adding new elements all the time. So it has come a Long Way since then too. The level of cross-training now-a-days, means what is unique to any "style"....there is none. That was the whole point of Sifu Larry's instruction, which he adopted from Sigun Bruce.
And I have studied Gracie/Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I found the training although very complete and fantastic for this area, in whole not complete enough.

Needless to say this is a forum to pay respect to one of the greatest complete fighters of the 20th century (regardless of what you think...enough teachers & legends will agree), and I find your lack of respect to Larry in this forum a bit disrepectful and ill-timed. I suggest you rethink your actions. Larry was a great man, and has way to many friends, and will be missed by all!
Thanks again Larry for everything!

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#357790 - 11/21/07 01:42 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: jasoned1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


3. Stupid Luck. Sorry to upset those fighters out there who dont want to hear it, but since true fighting is not a sport and a certain element of rawness occurs, even the best trained fighters sometimes get into bad situations by random luck. And I dont want to hear anyone disagree to this point....you havent fought enough if you dont think so!





That's the one that I would tend to go with. Anyone can get a lucky shot in. The bigger the guy is, the more those lucky ones hurt, lol. A 6'2", 350 Samoan isn't someone I want to be trading blows with.

In terms of the clinch or ground however, those big guys can be a fish out of water, just like anyone else without skill. Those ranges are the great equalizer.


Quote:


*Your last statement of JKD Grappling is outdated.....That's a unfair comment to make.





For the record, I didn't say it was outdated. I said I wasn't impressed with it and that folks have come a long way since back in the day.

Of course things evolve. Erik Paulson is a perfect example of that. Of course he's adopted more of a BJJ (no-gi) approach to grappling as pretty much everyone else has. Doesn't matter what you call it; if it uses the guard, mount, side control, back mount -- it's pretty much BJJ because that has been the most prevalent influence to come along in YEARS. Before that it was mostly wrestling with leg locks and a few chicken wings. Shooto in other words. But now, it's pretty much BJJ, so I personally don't even THINK of it as "JKD grappling". I prefer to give credit where it's due.


Quote:

Needless to say this is a forum to pay respect to one of the greatest complete fighters of the 20th century (regardless of what you think...enough teachers & legends will agree), and I find your lack of respect to Larry in this forum a bit disrepectful and ill-timed. I suggest you rethink your actions. Larry was a great man, and has way to many friends, and will be missed by all!
Thanks again Larry for everything!





Well actually, I wasn't disrespecting Mr. Hartsell. I was offering my opinion which is worth whatever you paid for it. I have the utmost respect for the man who personally taught my sisters husband, who in turn, taught me.


-John

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#357791 - 11/21/07 01:47 PM Re: RIP Larry Hartsell [Re: jasoned1]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

and I find your lack of respect to Larry in this forum a bit disrepectful and ill-timed. I suggest you rethink your actions. Larry was a great man, and has way to many friends, and will be missed by all!
Thanks again Larry for everything!




JKogas has always written well of Larry Hartsell. LH was one of fairly few early JKD folk that he acknowledged as having skills.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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