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#357712 - 08/22/07 01:50 AM Army and Marines
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Sorry if this is a bad place to put this but how does Army Infantry training compare to Marine Corps (All USA)) infantry training in terms of length, difficulty, and effectivness?
I have to choose between the too soon and I'm not sure which to go with.
_________________________
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#357713 - 08/22/07 04:05 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
MastaFighta Offline
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Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
United States Marine Corps: http://parents.marines.com/page/Timeline.jsp

United States Army: http://www.goarmy.com/for_parents/training.jsp

Between the two, the Marine Corps is harder.

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#357714 - 08/22/07 04:20 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: MastaFighta]
Stormdragon Offline
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Yeah Army is a bit more lax with discipline and tougness but if I become an Ariborne Ranger it pans out. But I'm still nto sure. I'm looking on other sights though so I wil lfiture it out soon. Any other opinions?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357715 - 08/22/07 06:49 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
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Also, does anyone know if it's true that while active both Army and Marines pay for full college tuition, that in the army you get a few thousand bucks upon enlistment, and you are guranteed to get the job you want (Army and Marines)?
Any input would be extremely appreciated and if you feel it would be best message me through pm. Thanks.
_________________________
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#357716 - 08/22/07 07:39 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
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Are the US Marines part of the US Navy or are they a seperate organisation in themselves?
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#357717 - 08/22/07 09:40 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
hunterkell Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Last time I checked the ARMY will guarantee you a Ranger contract (called option 40). Recruiters are infamous for not wanting to hand those out though; you really have to push for that.

In the MARINES (I think), you are not guaranteed a certain job.

Might I suggest the below sites for answers regarding your questions.

Be warned, if you go on that site and act disrespectfully they will light you up. Many of the posters are still full time Rangers and cadre at the school.

I would read a lot of threads before I posted any questions.

http://www.armyranger.com/bb/[/url]

http://www.airborneranger.com/forums/index.php?act=idx

They both have their challenges, I would not suggest one is harder than the other; they both put their lives on the line and do incredibly hard stuff.

K


Edited by hunterkell (08/22/07 09:45 AM)
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#357718 - 08/22/07 10:13 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: hunterkell]
hunterkell Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
The first link is goofed up, this one will work...

http://www.armyranger.com/bb/

K
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#357719 - 08/22/07 02:32 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: hunterkell]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
storm,

always have a plan B - the army, navy, airforce and marines each have elite combat units. I hope that you will make it in what ever you try, but keep in mind that a good chunk of people fall out of the elite units. look at what your other options are.

for instance, the marrines have force recon, and then there are also recon units in the rifle battalians (pardon me if I am not using the correct english terminology). but bottom line, being a rifleman in the marrines isn't bad, either.

ditto the army - you have rangers, you have airborn non ranger units, you have the 10th mountain, etc. you also have recon teams, as well as other specialty teams, within the infantry units.


good luck.

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#357720 - 08/22/07 07:33 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: globetrotter]
Stormdragon Offline
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I'm going to at least make Ranger qualitification (If I dont get injured or disqualified for something similar), and hey who knows maybe try for Pathfinder or Sniper School, SF, SERE, etc (that's one thing I like most about the Army is the multitude of school's and options, qualifications, etc.). Airborne is great by itself but I'm going to stop at nothing to achieve Ranger status.
Plan B? Uh, get an interservice transfer to the Marines and go infantry there.


Edited by Stormdragon (08/22/07 07:47 PM)
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#357721 - 08/22/07 11:10 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Storm, an inter-service transfer is extremely difficult to get, and you have to pay back any bonus you get from your original service, as well as lose your contribution to the MGIB.

As far as comparison goes, the Marine Corp is tougher in it's initial phases, plus it is harder to make rank and stay in. The Army is easier initially, and to make rank in, and has more options. Ultimately, Your DD 214 is the same, either way, and doesn't make a difference which branch you served in after you get out. An individual employer might be impressed, but overall it makes no difference. You are able to get your job guaranteed in the Army, most marines can't get that. If you are interested in Airborne Ranger, you want to enlist for infantry with a Ranger guarantee in your contract, and possibly Sapper school as well. Sapper school will help if you want to go SF. If not, it actually is impressive to have both tabs on your shoulder. Oh, there's also more reenlistment money for the Army right now.

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#357722 - 08/23/07 12:58 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yeah I hear you. I'll definitely go infantry with airborne and or ranger i nthe contract. If I fail ranger will I still be airborne infantry?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357723 - 08/23/07 01:19 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
If you meet the standard for airborne, you meet the standard for Ranger. Start doing pushups, situps, and running 4-6 miles, alternating muscle endurance and running, now. You want at least a 270 going into basic. Also check out armystudyguide.com and learn the warrior tasks and battle drills.

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#357724 - 08/23/07 05:36 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
laf7773 Offline
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Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
All branches have good offers right now, we all need bodies. Be sure and check the fine print on everything before signing. Some recruiters are infamous for not giving the full story. Yes there are signing bonuses but they are usually attached to longer enlistments or assignments to hard to fill jobs. A lot of these jobs restrict you from attempting other things such as Rangers for a specific amount of time. If you are promised something make sure it's in your contract or you’re most likely not going to get it. Don't let them pressure you into taking a job you don't want by saying what you’re looking for is unavailable. Get what you want or wait.

The Marine Corp. is under the Department of the Navy but their procedures for enlistment/job selection are quite a bit different. As said before getting an inter service transfer is next to impossible. In many cases you have to just wait out your time and transfer at the end of your enlistment.
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#357725 - 08/23/07 07:35 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: laf7773]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Thanks. In UK the Royal Marines are part of Royal Navy, that's why I asked.
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#357726 - 08/23/07 08:35 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
jpoor Offline
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Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
I would also recommend getting something in the contract that will serve you well should you get injured or for some other reason can't go on as a Ranger, etc. My choice would be a language or other technical skill like UAV operator. Both of those, and many others are still needed in the Special Forces and Rangers. Then, you'll have something a little more marketable in the after military life, and something to continue with should you blow out your knee or back, etc while still serving.


Next piece of advice, if it isn't in writing in the contract, it wasn't promised. Don't believe anything else.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#357727 - 08/23/07 08:55 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: jpoor]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Yeah, do double check your contract before signing. Oh, I almost forgot, don't forget to learn the Drill and Ceremony (marching, facing movements and that kind of stuff) before you go. With the Army, everything I mentioned doing prior to joining will get you higher rank, and make life a little easier in Basic. Plus, the better you do in basic, the better you will do in later schools and training.

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#357728 - 08/24/07 10:56 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Yeah, do double check your contract before signing. Oh, I almost forgot, don't forget to learn the Drill and Ceremony (marching, facing movements and that kind of stuff) before you go. With the Army, everything I mentioned doing prior to joining will get you higher rank, and make life a little easier in Basic. Plus, the better you do in basic, the better you will do in later schools and training.





this is very interesting - in the IDF, we used to recomend that you go in with good fitness and attitude, but as a clean slate, because your drill instructors wouldn't trust anything that they hadn't tought you themselves. the guys who went in "knowing" something usually dropped out.

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#357729 - 08/24/07 01:33 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: globetrotter]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Globehopper,

I think it's one of those things where you go into basic "knowing" it, BUT, not telling anyone that you do...because in basic, "no one likes a know it all".

It's called being the "grayman".

K


Edited by hunterkell (08/24/07 01:34 PM)
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#357730 - 08/24/07 11:12 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: hunterkell]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Kell, good one. Complete the checklist for rank, but don't act like you know it, unless the command is given to do it. The most basic rule of the Army is, if you know it to be the right thing to do, take initiative and do it. If you're not sure, wait until you're told to do it.

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#357731 - 08/29/07 09:10 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I agree fully.

I went into basic and made the mistake of mentioned my martial art traning. Well, low and behold one of the drills was a yellow, green belt in Tae Kwon do I beleive. From then on he had something to prove and not to mention he was short. So the only way he could prove it is to smoke us.
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#357732 - 09/03/07 10:26 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: JasonM]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I joined the Army with option 40 (Airborne Ranger gurantee). I leave to Benning next August. Sweet.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357733 - 09/04/07 01:10 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Congrats.

Now start running.

Kel
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#357734 - 09/04/07 08:10 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: hunterkell]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I think I'm at about8-8.5 minutes per mile possibly a bit less than 8...for 1 mile then it gets bad.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357735 - 09/04/07 09:00 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Start running more. You need to run two miles in 13 mins or less. What you run right now is just meeting Army standards. You also need to be able to do 73 push-ups and 78 sit-ups. Start exercising. Add pull-ups as well. The better you do early on, the easier it will go for you down the road. You could sit at Benning for a month waiting for an open slot for Airborne and Ranger schools, or you could go straight from your AIT or leave.

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#357736 - 09/04/07 09:03 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I do pushups, pull ups, burpees, etc. all the time. Just need to get my running down. It'll get better as I have a training partner now.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357737 - 09/05/07 09:56 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Here's another thing-while in the military, when you take PT tests you will be sore from prior PT training.

Therefore, you will need to be able to do perfect form pushups, situps, pullups and running (meeting the standard)all while you are sore as hell...so when you are fresh you need to be exceeding the minimum.

K
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Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#357738 - 09/05/07 02:31 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: hunterkell]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
A good point is to ensure you are doing army standard pushups. Or if you are used to wha tyou think it right it could be a rude awaeking when you hear, 1, 1, 1, 1, and you done 20 push ups your way and it ain't even one the army way. Same thing for situps. But that is mainly when taking the PT test....
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#357739 - 09/05/07 07:09 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: JasonM]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Yes, get the 21-20 standard from your recuiter. FM 21-20 is the Army Physical Fitness Training and Testing Manual. If you do everything close to standard from the start, it's a lot easier on the PT test.

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#357740 - 09/06/07 06:29 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
good luck

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#357741 - 09/09/07 02:30 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: globetrotter]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Congrats and good luck.

You say 'next august'. Is that optional or is the waiting list so long?


Edited by trevek (09/09/07 02:31 PM)
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#357742 - 09/09/07 04:54 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
He has to finish his senior year of high school, and then it will all depend on when an opening comes up.

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#357743 - 09/11/07 07:24 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I see. That's interesting. Quite different from when I joined Her Majesty's Forces... do they still have muskets?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#357744 - 09/15/07 05:40 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
I leave August 13th of next year to basic in fort Benning Georgia. I chose that time over June or July just to enjoy my last summer of freedom for a few years.
Georgia summer=HELL and goody goody.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357745 - 09/15/07 09:29 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Could be worse, you could arrive in Missouri in the middle of winter.

Military life isn't that bad. Sure, you can't just up and go somewhere whenever you like, but these days, your room is your own private room, although you share a common area with someone else. Most posts now have policies prohibiting "hey you" details after duty. Shopping at the PX is comparable to Walmart. And there's plenty of room to advance, plus the opportunities you'll have after military service. If you signed for four years, you'll probably make SGT. If you do, you might consider staying in for a career.

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#357746 - 09/16/07 01:01 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
In the 1980's we poor limeys were amazed to find that US soldiers not only had fridges in their rooms but could even ave beer! (not sure if the second bit is true)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#357747 - 09/16/07 11:43 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
trevek, it is true. I've got a 12 pack right now. Tomorrow is a training holiday.

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#357748 - 09/17/07 07:58 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
a 12 pack? Must be all the sit-ups?

British squaddies aren't supposed to have alcohol in the billets.


Edited by trevek (09/17/07 07:59 AM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#357749 - 09/18/07 07:25 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Eek, there are definitely times when I'm thankful to be an American.

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#357750 - 09/18/07 07:45 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Yes, I suppose every cloud has a silver lining.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#357751 - 09/19/07 09:22 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
aeclark82 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Davenport, IA, USA
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I suppose every cloud has a silver lining.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



To quote the Greatful Dead "Every silver lining has a touch of grey"


Ahh... Good ol' Benning.. I had some good times there. I'm not sure what the AFPT scores needed to get into Airborne and Ranger school are anymore (I've been out for 5 years) but one word of advice.. since you have Airborne and RIP schools in your contract make sure you qualify with the proper scores. If you don't it may constitue a breach of contract. A guy in my basic training unit had Airborne and RIP schools in his contract and while he could run like the wind.. he couldn't do push ups very well. He didn't get a high enough score on the AFPT for Airborne and RIP so he was told he was in breach of contract.. he had station of choice as Ft. Lewis, WA and ended up going to Korea. Just be careful when dealing with the recruiters/drill sergeants.

That is only a very few of the people in the Army though. For the most part (in my experience) soilders are very nice people and should be commended on the sacrifices they and their families make.

Another thing, besides the obvious Delta Force, Green Berets, Rangers, etc.. one thing that you may want to consider is Infantry Scouts. When I was in the army I was in an infantry scout unit. Basically.. they sneak around and stick their noses where it doesn't belong (that's how the Platoon Sgt explained it to me when he convinced me to transfer to that unit.)

Anywho, Infantry in the Army is the ONLY way to go IMO

Good luck!


Edited by aeclark82 (09/19/07 09:36 AM)
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#357752 - 09/19/07 11:18 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: aeclark82]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Having trained in Aldershot we were told that only two things fall from the sky... Paratroopers and bird-droppings.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#357753 - 09/19/07 07:38 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: trevek]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
aeclark, now how would you ever get anywhere without the Combat Engineers?

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#357754 - 09/23/07 04:21 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
FNG Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Orlando, FL
I signed the contract soon as I turned 17, I finished highschool and only had a 4 day summer vacation then went to Parris Island. MCMAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCMAP) is some tight stuff.

I learned three important things from the military.

1. Whatever you want make sure you get in writing. Words don't mean squat.

2. Always carry toilet paper, military facilities are notorious for not having it:)

3. You can make a sandwich out of anything, specially in boot.

As far as the Navy and Marine Corps... the Marine Corps is a department of the Navy, the men's department, j/k. I am in the only TRUELY integrated Navy/Marine Corps unit, a medical battalion. Trust me, it gets confusing as the Marine Corps places more responsibility on lower ranks than the Navy. E-3/E-4 in the Corps is when you start seeing some major leadership whereas you're looking at E-5/E-6 in the Navy. Right now there is a toss-up for Platoon Sergeant (a billet not a rank) in my unit and they're looking at either me or a good friend of mine... both of us are Lance Corporals (E-3). I've never hear of anything that big going to an E-3 in the Navy.

As far as Army vs Marines... my best friend is a ranger, currently selected for special forces and I can still kick his ass lol.
_________________________
Tae Kwon Do - 11 years MCMAP - 3 years Aikido - just started Kendo - just started

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#357755 - 09/24/07 12:53 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: FNG]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
FNG, just wait until he gets done with the SF training. Remember that the USMC is the world's strongest advance ground force, whereas the the US Army is the world's largest and most diverse ground force.

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#357756 - 09/24/07 01:08 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
FNG Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Orlando, FL
Quote:

FNG, just wait until he gets done with the SF training.




*head hanging down* yeah... that will be the end of me...

Unless I somehow re-enlist with the MCMAP course guaranteed on my contract, THEN make it to BB. At that point I would consider him and I even. I can honestly say the ONLY people I have EVER been afraid of were MCMAP black belts... and carnies.


Edited by FNG (09/24/07 01:10 AM)
_________________________
Tae Kwon Do - 11 years MCMAP - 3 years Aikido - just started Kendo - just started

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#357757 - 09/25/07 12:17 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: FNG]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Ok 7 and half minutes or 7 and 15 seconds per mile.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#357758 - 09/25/07 01:14 PM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
try 6 1/2 per mile. You want a 300 PT score so you are guaranteed your airborne slot.

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#357759 - 09/26/07 02:53 AM Re: Army and Marines [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I'll be there soon but it's already guranteed I mean I can make the minimums.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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