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#357476 - 10/24/07 06:34 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Youtube video of Mr. Nishiuchi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=428Aa4ZTG40
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357477 - 10/24/07 07:43 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Awesome! Thanks for sharing that! I wonder is trhere is a longer clip somewhere...
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357478 - 10/24/07 11:22 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
ya Nishiuchi sells these videos, along with his kobudo and pang gai noon ones.. Im not sure where to get em... maybe his web site? I doubt you'll find the full thing on the internet though.

Can anyone read the kanji as he holds up his certificate? or by some phenomenal chance recognize his sensei? I'm really curious as to what style he does, if it is MJER then which ryu-ha?
_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357479 - 10/25/07 08:12 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
If you look at the “Related Videos” on the Youtube page, you will see several additional videos of him performing waza. There’s also a link in the description that will take you to a site that has information on who he trained with (these videos are also available through Budovideos). According to the information, he trained with a certain “Sawada” hanshi, 19th successor of “Hasegawa Eishin-ryu”. In the video, he seems to say perhaps Hayashi sensei, but it’s hard to hear. Neither name appears on Iwata sensei’s list of sixteen 18th generation Kongen no Maki holders from Oe sensei.

MJER was never called that before Oe sensei. There were several dojo in former Tosa practicing the art with slight differences. As I understand things, Oe sensei set out to restructure "Tosa iai" and preserve many of these scattered details and differences under the new name. We also have to remember that he was headmaster of not only Tanimura-ha, but Shimomura-ha as well and included bits and pieces from both branches in MJER. Nakayama Hakudo sensei was also a successor of another line of Shimomura-ha (i.e., Hasegawa Eishin-ryu as he called it), which goes to show just how scattered and fragmented the art probably was in Tosa at the time, just as it is now, really...

The point being, is it possible that some of the various small dojo didn’t follow or recognize Oe sensei? Maybe. Is it possible that Mr. Nishiuchi’s training was through a line stemming from one of these dojo, or even a former student/s of Hosokawa sensei that didn’t recognize Hakudo sensei as 16th headmaster of their line of Shimomura-ha (he was a foreigner to Tosa after all)? Maybe. Is it also possible that some of these dojo survive today? Maybe. Is it possible that Mr. Nishiuchi studied in one of these dojo? Perhaps... It’s all very speculative without more information or hard facts. Maybe it’s just a matter of simply asking Mikio Nishiuchi himself to verify his training.

As to his menkyo, much of it is hard to read, and someone with a better command of Japanese might be able to read more, but I can make out “chuden” about in the middle. I think this is the rank he claims... I don’t know where the 10th-dan comes from, maybe kobudo, or this is possibly the rank he assumed if in fact he did found “Toei Ryu Iai Batto”.

Just my two cents.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357480 - 10/25/07 10:11 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
His waza is certainly quite different from what I've been taught in the ZNIR/Seitokai line of MJER.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357481 - 11/12/07 03:56 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Hello everyone:

(fatguy) Shihan Nishiuchi received his chuden degree from the late Sawada, Tomonobu in Kochi (Tosa) Japan. Sawada-san was the 20th successor of Tosa Iai (MJER) or Toei-Ryu Iai as it is known today. I was fortunate enough to see it at his home in CA.

Additionally, Shihan's videos are available through Pather Productions and Century Martial Arts - note that he is pictured throughout ther magazine with the various weapons they sell.

(A.J. Bryant) Nishiuchi did not found Toei-Ryu as the headmaster, Sawada, Tomonobu of Kochi died unexpectedly before naming a successor. Shihan has agreed to provide a photocopy of the original lineage when I return from LA in two weeks. I will gladly translate the names in kanji and post the photo on my site for further reaserch and confirmation.

(Mr. Mahan) Yes Tosa Iai is not commonly known today as the ryu split sometime around the time of Hayashi Masunojo Masanari (12th successor). Previous to him, all practicioners were strickly Kochi (Tosa) people and outsiders were strickly forbiden to learn, practice or even watch with only one exception of one Kendo master who was allowed to watch and take notes. In reference to A.J.Bryant's comment, I will provide the Japanese documents for further study.

With this split, the same teachings (or as close as we can assume) traveled outside of Kochi and ultimately Japan - known as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (or simply Eishin Ryu Iai) with the lineage as Tosa Iai.

Shihan Nishiuchi, however, favors the lienage who remained in Kochi as the most direct and unchanged form of MJER as it was maintained by Kochi people.

My question and research of late is to find the lineage of each of our schools of MJER / Tosa Iai and trace them to each of the headmasters. For example, does your school originate from one of the Kochi headmasters or from after the 12th successor who may have departed Kochi?

This could be exciting stuff to learn about our Ryu's history as we could effectively piece together the different teachers, locations and any variations made by each headmaster. As for Toei-Ryu, I can definately expound upon the modifications (different facing directions and vital warm up exercises to prevent injuries all too common in this art.)

I am also excited to learn that your ryu is Tosa Iai as we now can discuss the similarities or changes to increase our individual understanding of our arts - very cool indeed.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357482 - 11/12/07 03:59 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Sorry - one more detail.

Nishiuchi is a 10th dan in Kobudo, 7th dan in Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate and holds the Chuden level in Iaido.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357483 - 11/13/07 12:48 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
That is some very interesting information, but I only understand "Chudan" to mean middle... what is the rank related to?
_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357484 - 11/13/07 10:35 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
There are 2 kinds of budo in Japan today. Those forms with a long tradition were closely associated with bushido are called kobudo or classical budo and those formulated after the samurai era ending in 1868 are called gendai budo or modern budo.

Kobudo uses the menkyo (licences) system where these are awarded by masters to students in the form of makimono (scrolls).

1. Shoden (basic level)
2. Chuden (intermediate level)
3. Okuden (master's level)
4. Kaiden (deep initiation).

Students who rise through all these stages are called menkyo kaiden.

The samurai used 5 levels: Shoden, Chuden, Okuden, Menkyo and Daikyo (dai=great or highest).

Gendai budo issues 9 dan grades from shodan (1st dan) to kyudan (9th dan) and further awards the ranks renshi (high), kyoshi (2nd highest) and hanshi (highest)

What is important to understand that training at actual direct school or with a headmaster (Say 2-3 days a week), means that achieving the Shoden level usually takes on average 7-9 years and mastering the art around 30 years assuming 5 days a week hardcore practice.

What makes Shihan Nishiuchi cool is that he has effectively done and taught this for 45+ years.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357485 - 11/13/07 10:55 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Forgive me, I must not be completely understanding this.

If Nishiuchi has effectively mastered the Toei ryu iai, why does he then hold chuden rather than okuden or kaiden?

Would my thought process be true if I were to say Shihan Nishiuchi has been awarded with menkyo kaiden, but is in his intermediate level of that license?

I apologize if this is confusing to you, but there is some aspect of this I am not quite grasping.

_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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