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#357446 - 08/20/07 07:07 PM Buying an Iaito
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Has anyone ever ordered an Iaito from
http://www.budo-aoi.com/ ?

I placed an order 6/12/07 and it should be here next month. I was just curious if anyone has any expierence with this company.

Thanks,
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357447 - 08/20/07 07:40 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
I myself use an CAS/Iberia practical iaito and have no knowledge regarding your specific company. As long as your sensei is okay with the selection offered and your choice I wouldn't worry to much. IMO Best of luck which Japanese sword art are you study it really changes when you start using an Iaito.
_________________________
Jikishin kore dojo nari

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#357448 - 08/20/07 08:36 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I don't have any personal experience with their Iaito, but I've heard good things. No reason to fear getting a junker.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357449 - 08/20/07 11:05 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Thanks for the feed back!!

fyi I study Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357450 - 08/21/07 04:21 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Where are you training if you don't mind me asking?
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357451 - 08/21/07 07:35 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
I train at Traditional Martial Arts Academy in Tracy, Ca under Sensei Albracht.
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357452 - 08/22/07 12:38 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Do you happen to know what branch of MJER this is? I know of an MJER dojo associated with the ZNIR, and I think I recently heard of a Kendo Renmei group. I couldn't read the wps file on the dojos website, which I assume contains more information about the iaido program.

http://www.traditional-dojo.com/Our_Programs.html
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357453 - 08/22/07 02:16 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Im actually not sure what branch it is. We discussed it a few weeks ago, but I didnt have my note book with me that day. I know he trains in stockton, but I forgot the name of his sensei. I will ask tonight. I dont have the right program on my computer to open the wps file either.
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357454 - 08/22/07 02:54 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
ahh, found a viewer for the .wps file

.wps viewer

from the file
"The teaching and practice methods of our style are kept standardized by the Toei - Ryu Iai Batto Renmei, headed by Master Mikio Nishiuchi 7th Dan."
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357455 - 08/22/07 04:48 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Ahh. Based on some information found on the following MySpace profile(which admittedly may not be the best source), http://www.myspace.com/sanjurosensei, I think you are probably not practicing Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu under one of the larger branches, but rather something called Toei Ryu. I'm not particularly familiar with it. I'll see what I can find out. You've got me curious.

Not much to find apparently. Most references refer to Kobudo. He is mentioned in an ebudo thread but only briefly. According to the myspace profile linked above Toei Ryu is apparently related in some way to Tosa Iai.


Edited by Charles Mahan (08/22/07 04:56 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357456 - 08/22/07 05:44 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Weird...now Im curious... The only things I could find were biographies on Nishiuchi Mikio Saiko-Shihan. Im still new to this. I started in feb this year and am about to take my 5th kyu test. Ive never even heard of Toei Ryu or Tosa Iai...ill go look em up on google
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357457 - 08/22/07 05:52 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
ok, so from what Ive seen Toei Ryu is a form of jujutsu and
Tosa Iai is an iaido form using short swords, i gues the wakizashi. But I cant do to much researching while im at the office. Let me know what you find out.
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357458 - 08/22/07 07:35 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Tosa is a region of Japan. When people refer to Tosa Iai they are referring to the sword arts related to that area. Usually they are referring to the line of sword arts which later became known as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu.

Where did you see Tosa Iai refered to as a style using short swords?
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357459 - 08/22/07 08:05 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
I did a google search and went to the 2nd find, here, but since I was at work I did a quick scan so I may have misread something. Ill go back and check right now.

Ok, yeah, my fault. I mis read someones post...this is from that thread

" Must admit Ive never come across MJER guys who use longer swords although there does seem to be some in the States...might ask a question on E-Budo and cause some trouble.... :smiley:
My teachers preference (and the guys in Kochi) is to use slightly shorter swords, ie at 6' 0" I would use a 2.4, with small tsuba also.This is a little bit bigger than a wakazashi tsuba but nowhere near as big as what I would call a standard size one on my iaito."

I mis read what was said, my appologies. I saw that quote and had to close the browser because the boss man was walkin by. hehehe Again, sorry for the confusion.
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357460 - 08/22/07 09:17 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Ahh. Ok. Just checking. Tosa Iai is if anything known for longer than 'average' sword. That's what made it strange.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357461 - 08/22/07 09:42 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
ahh Ill have to do some reading on it when I get home, im gettin ready to go to class right now. Ill talk to my sensei about it to get some clarification on the branch.

I had a conversation with my sensei before I ordered my Iaito and he said his sensai uses a longer blade than is recommended based on his height. So that makes sense about using a longer sword.
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357462 - 08/23/07 11:31 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Ok here's a little info at BudoVideos on Nishiuchi-sensei

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=21157

Quote:

Nishiuchi was born in Kochi City, Japan, the Mecca of Muso Jikiden Eishin Iai Heiho (renowned Samurai swordsmanship). He holds a certified Chuden degree from the 19th successor, Hanshi Sawada of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu Iai do.






Edited by Charles Mahan (08/23/07 11:33 AM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357463 - 08/23/07 01:01 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
I forgot my note book at home last night so I didnt ask my sensei about the branch we study as I didnt want to forget and have to ask again.

Hasegawa Eishin Ryu iaido, is that a branch of MJER or is it a different style all together?
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357464 - 08/23/07 07:25 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
I am a beginner myself. But the way I understand it is that Eishin-san was the swordsman who modified the techniques to adapt to the shorter swords of his era(katana). Before him the swords were generally longer. The style took his name and still has it Muso Jikiden "Eishin" Ryu due to his major contributions and influence. As I said that is how I understand it still a beginner in the Art.
_________________________
Jikishin kore dojo nari

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#357465 - 08/23/07 08:53 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Hasegawa Eishin Ryu is the name still used by some lineages to refer to the Tate Hiza no Bu set of waza. It is also the name of a style which is seperate from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Interestingly some branches of MJER also refer to the Tate Hiza no Bu set of waza as the Chuden level waza. Chuden roughly translates to "intermediate".
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357466 - 10/11/07 07:38 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
FINALLY! Its been 17 weeks since I placed my order with Aoi Budogu (http://www.budo-aoi.com/) and I just got the email today saying the sword is finished! Its on its way from the forge in Japan to the store in Canada for a quality inspection before they ship it to me. The customer service guy Ive been talking to said it should be getting shipped to me by next week...since its standard UPS I think it may be 2 weeks more before I get it, but at least after 4 months I got some good news! Ill post pictures of it when t comes in. Im so excited I can hardly sit still!!!
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357467 - 10/17/07 01:55 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Mina-san Yoroshiku:

I noticed the thread on Toei Ryu Iai Batto Renmei Iiado and I have been a personal student of Saiko Shihan Nishiuchi, Mikio for the last 2 years. Shihan is a 10th dan in Iiado and has precticed for 45+ years. He is also a 7th dan kobudo master (an entirely seperate art and similar to Soke Hatsumi's Bujiin Kan. Shihan is also responsible for training many regional masters such as Dave Kovars in Sacramento and an 8th dan in Reno.

While I have not updated my site for some time www.myspace.com/sanjurosensei I should be able to answer most of your questions. Iiado originated in Tossa (Kochi) Japan and followed the lineage its 7th successor who made the art famous was Hasegawa Eishin.

1. Hayashizaki Jinsuke Minamoto Shigenobu (Founder of Shimmei Muso Ryu)
2. Tamiya Heibei Narimasa (Founder of Tamiya Ryu)
3. Nagano Muraku Nyudo Kinrosai
4. Momo Gumbei Mitsushige
5. Arikawa Shozaemon Munetsugu
6. Banno Dan-Uemon-no-Jô Nobusada
7. Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eïshin
8. Arai Seitetsu Seishin
9. Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa
10. Hayashi Yasudayu Seisho
11. Oguro Motouemon Kiyokatsu (After Oguro, there came into being 2 branches formed on philosophical differences between two students of Oguro: The Shimomura-ha & Tanimura-ha (branches), the former being headed by Maysuyori Teisuke Hisanari and the latter by Matsuyoshi Teisuke (Shinsuke) Hisanari, who became the 12th sōke.

The lineage continued on until the death of Oguro Motoemon Kiyokatsu when the ryu split into two branch schools (Ha), the Tanimura ha and the Shimomura ha. The Tanimura ha is still known today as Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu, while the Shimomura ha was renamed to Muso Shinden ryu by the 16th headmaster, Nakayama Hakudo. Just an aside, he is often named as the "founder" of Muso Shinden ryu. Actually it was only after his death that his followers started to formally use this name for Hakudo's particular style. Anyway, Toei Ryu is a direct teaching of the original line without deviations such as those found in Muso Shinden Ryu. I am glad to answer any questions and train with Shihan every Saturday in Vacaville CA. I will try to check in here from time to time, but it is better to contact me on the myspace site. Ossu! Sensei : )~
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357468 - 10/17/07 01:57 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
BTW:

When ordering an Iaito, our dojo usually deals directly with Maru Fuji in Japan. However, our Woodland CA dojo also favors Tosando - another fine Japanese sword maker.

Ossu! Sensei : )~
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357469 - 10/17/07 09:36 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Sanjuro, some notes for you:

It's "Iaido", not "Iiado".

"Tosa", not "Tossa"

And for good measure: "Sensei" is something other people call you. Calling yourself sensei is a faux-pas that you should avoid.

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#357470 - 10/17/07 10:47 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Anyway, Toei Ryu is a direct teaching of the original line without deviations such as those found in Muso Shinden Ryu.




"Original line" Which one would that be? Are you saying you still practice the original style created by Hayashizaki Jinsuke without any kind of modification by any subsequent generation?

Also I think you will find that MJER contains some influence from Shimomura-ha as Oe-soke was well versed in both ha. It is my impression that it is primarily Tanimura-ha though.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357471 - 10/18/07 10:10 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
thats interesting, I was unaware that Shihan Nishiuchi practiced iaijutsu... I just thought it was Kobudo and Pang Gai Noon... the only information I can find on his JSA history is "Muso Jikiden Hasegawa Eishin Ryu" ... is that different from plain MJER?
_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357472 - 10/18/07 10:14 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I've never heard of Muso Jikiden Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, but there is definitely a Hasegawa Eishin Ryu. Hasegawa Eishin Ryu is another name for the set of waza which are now referred to as Tate Hiza no Bu.

[edited to correct a brain freeze moment/]


Edited by Charles Mahan (10/18/07 10:57 AM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357473 - 10/22/07 03:41 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Ok, so In class last week my sensei said that we are practicing Tosa Iai. I know Nishiuchi sensai lived in Tosa and he learned Iaido there...but now im a bit confused.
Did MJER branch from Tosa Iai or did Tosa Iai branch from MJER or are they the same? Because all of our hand outs, shirts and what not say MJER on them...Oh, my Iaito will be here tomorrow, or today rather...since its 12:45am!!!!! But I wont beable to take it in this week, my grandma's 79th birthday is the same day as class.


Edited by PsychoDave (10/22/07 03:42 AM)
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357474 - 10/22/07 08:27 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
My understanding is that Tosa Iai, which is kind of a regional name for the arts of the Tosa Samurai, largely survives today in the form of a few distinct styles, one of which is Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Nobody really calls it Tosa Iai anymore, in large part because the arts in question are no longer found only in the Tosa region.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357475 - 10/22/07 03:59 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Ahh ok, that makes sense.

My Iaito should be at my house any time now...ill be uploading some pics for those interested as soon as I can
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357476 - 10/24/07 06:34 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Youtube video of Mr. Nishiuchi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=428Aa4ZTG40
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357477 - 10/24/07 07:43 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
PsychoDave Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 47
Loc: California bay area
Awesome! Thanks for sharing that! I wonder is trhere is a longer clip somewhere...
_________________________
-Dave-

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#357478 - 10/24/07 11:22 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: PsychoDave]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
ya Nishiuchi sells these videos, along with his kobudo and pang gai noon ones.. Im not sure where to get em... maybe his web site? I doubt you'll find the full thing on the internet though.

Can anyone read the kanji as he holds up his certificate? or by some phenomenal chance recognize his sensei? I'm really curious as to what style he does, if it is MJER then which ryu-ha?
_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357479 - 10/25/07 08:12 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
If you look at the “Related Videos” on the Youtube page, you will see several additional videos of him performing waza. There’s also a link in the description that will take you to a site that has information on who he trained with (these videos are also available through Budovideos). According to the information, he trained with a certain “Sawada” hanshi, 19th successor of “Hasegawa Eishin-ryu”. In the video, he seems to say perhaps Hayashi sensei, but it’s hard to hear. Neither name appears on Iwata sensei’s list of sixteen 18th generation Kongen no Maki holders from Oe sensei.

MJER was never called that before Oe sensei. There were several dojo in former Tosa practicing the art with slight differences. As I understand things, Oe sensei set out to restructure "Tosa iai" and preserve many of these scattered details and differences under the new name. We also have to remember that he was headmaster of not only Tanimura-ha, but Shimomura-ha as well and included bits and pieces from both branches in MJER. Nakayama Hakudo sensei was also a successor of another line of Shimomura-ha (i.e., Hasegawa Eishin-ryu as he called it), which goes to show just how scattered and fragmented the art probably was in Tosa at the time, just as it is now, really...

The point being, is it possible that some of the various small dojo didn’t follow or recognize Oe sensei? Maybe. Is it possible that Mr. Nishiuchi’s training was through a line stemming from one of these dojo, or even a former student/s of Hosokawa sensei that didn’t recognize Hakudo sensei as 16th headmaster of their line of Shimomura-ha (he was a foreigner to Tosa after all)? Maybe. Is it also possible that some of these dojo survive today? Maybe. Is it possible that Mr. Nishiuchi studied in one of these dojo? Perhaps... It’s all very speculative without more information or hard facts. Maybe it’s just a matter of simply asking Mikio Nishiuchi himself to verify his training.

As to his menkyo, much of it is hard to read, and someone with a better command of Japanese might be able to read more, but I can make out “chuden” about in the middle. I think this is the rank he claims... I don’t know where the 10th-dan comes from, maybe kobudo, or this is possibly the rank he assumed if in fact he did found “Toei Ryu Iai Batto”.

Just my two cents.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357480 - 10/25/07 10:11 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
His waza is certainly quite different from what I've been taught in the ZNIR/Seitokai line of MJER.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357481 - 11/12/07 03:56 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: Charles Mahan]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Hello everyone:

(fatguy) Shihan Nishiuchi received his chuden degree from the late Sawada, Tomonobu in Kochi (Tosa) Japan. Sawada-san was the 20th successor of Tosa Iai (MJER) or Toei-Ryu Iai as it is known today. I was fortunate enough to see it at his home in CA.

Additionally, Shihan's videos are available through Pather Productions and Century Martial Arts - note that he is pictured throughout ther magazine with the various weapons they sell.

(A.J. Bryant) Nishiuchi did not found Toei-Ryu as the headmaster, Sawada, Tomonobu of Kochi died unexpectedly before naming a successor. Shihan has agreed to provide a photocopy of the original lineage when I return from LA in two weeks. I will gladly translate the names in kanji and post the photo on my site for further reaserch and confirmation.

(Mr. Mahan) Yes Tosa Iai is not commonly known today as the ryu split sometime around the time of Hayashi Masunojo Masanari (12th successor). Previous to him, all practicioners were strickly Kochi (Tosa) people and outsiders were strickly forbiden to learn, practice or even watch with only one exception of one Kendo master who was allowed to watch and take notes. In reference to A.J.Bryant's comment, I will provide the Japanese documents for further study.

With this split, the same teachings (or as close as we can assume) traveled outside of Kochi and ultimately Japan - known as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (or simply Eishin Ryu Iai) with the lineage as Tosa Iai.

Shihan Nishiuchi, however, favors the lienage who remained in Kochi as the most direct and unchanged form of MJER as it was maintained by Kochi people.

My question and research of late is to find the lineage of each of our schools of MJER / Tosa Iai and trace them to each of the headmasters. For example, does your school originate from one of the Kochi headmasters or from after the 12th successor who may have departed Kochi?

This could be exciting stuff to learn about our Ryu's history as we could effectively piece together the different teachers, locations and any variations made by each headmaster. As for Toei-Ryu, I can definately expound upon the modifications (different facing directions and vital warm up exercises to prevent injuries all too common in this art.)

I am also excited to learn that your ryu is Tosa Iai as we now can discuss the similarities or changes to increase our individual understanding of our arts - very cool indeed.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357482 - 11/12/07 03:59 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Sorry - one more detail.

Nishiuchi is a 10th dan in Kobudo, 7th dan in Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate and holds the Chuden level in Iaido.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357483 - 11/13/07 12:48 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
That is some very interesting information, but I only understand "Chudan" to mean middle... what is the rank related to?
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Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357484 - 11/13/07 10:35 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
There are 2 kinds of budo in Japan today. Those forms with a long tradition were closely associated with bushido are called kobudo or classical budo and those formulated after the samurai era ending in 1868 are called gendai budo or modern budo.

Kobudo uses the menkyo (licences) system where these are awarded by masters to students in the form of makimono (scrolls).

1. Shoden (basic level)
2. Chuden (intermediate level)
3. Okuden (master's level)
4. Kaiden (deep initiation).

Students who rise through all these stages are called menkyo kaiden.

The samurai used 5 levels: Shoden, Chuden, Okuden, Menkyo and Daikyo (dai=great or highest).

Gendai budo issues 9 dan grades from shodan (1st dan) to kyudan (9th dan) and further awards the ranks renshi (high), kyoshi (2nd highest) and hanshi (highest)

What is important to understand that training at actual direct school or with a headmaster (Say 2-3 days a week), means that achieving the Shoden level usually takes on average 7-9 years and mastering the art around 30 years assuming 5 days a week hardcore practice.

What makes Shihan Nishiuchi cool is that he has effectively done and taught this for 45+ years.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357485 - 11/13/07 10:55 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Forgive me, I must not be completely understanding this.

If Nishiuchi has effectively mastered the Toei ryu iai, why does he then hold chuden rather than okuden or kaiden?

Would my thought process be true if I were to say Shihan Nishiuchi has been awarded with menkyo kaiden, but is in his intermediate level of that license?

I apologize if this is confusing to you, but there is some aspect of this I am not quite grasping.

_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357486 - 11/14/07 02:03 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
That is an excellent question.

Simply put, the headmaster Sawada-san died unexpectedly and no one else was formerly recognized to confer the licence as the next head master. I know of one of Shihan's simpai who was Yakuza, but I do not know if he formally teaches. I am also concerned when I return to Japan as to who my next shihan should be.

Anyway, to my understanding, he has reached Okuden (master level) but I will have to confer before stating this as fact. Either way, I do believe he is the highest level in the U.S. and trains several 8th & 9th dan in CA, NV and overseas.

Ossu!
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357487 - 11/14/07 02:40 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Psycho Dave: I noticed your comment for training at Traditional Martial Arts Academy in Tracy, CA under Sensei Albracht. I believe your Sensei was certified by Shihan Nishiuchi, so in effect, you should be studying Toei Ryu Iaido.
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357488 - 11/14/07 09:18 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
A split in the ryuha did occur with the 12th generation leading to the Tanimura-ha (Hayashi Masu) and Shimomura-ha (Matsuyoshi Sadasuke), but Eishin-ryu at that time was still an otome-ryu of the Tosa han and was therefore not taught to outsiders. It wasn’t until after Oe Masamichi sensei’s time that the ryu spread outside of Tosa (probably during his headmastership actually) in the early 1900s.

The Kendo master you refer to was likely Nakayama Hakudo who was denied direct instruction by Oe sensei and only allowed to observe and take notes. This was because Hakudo sensei was not from Tosa.

Oe sensei was also the 15th headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, but there were several former students of the previous headmaster (Shimomura Moichi) that didn’t recognize Oe sensei and went their own way. One of these was Hosokawa Yoshimasa, who taught Hakudo sensei the Shimomura-ha... It’s not difficult to read between the lines here as to why Hosokawa might have ended up taking on Hakudo sensei as a student.

So, my question to you would be who was Sawada Tomonobu’s teacher? Also, does your lineage connect back to Oe sensei or someone else?

Second, do you practice any of the paired kumitachi sets of Eishin-ryu, such as the Tachiuchi no Kurai or Tsume-ai no Kurai? If so, how many kata are in your Tachiuchi set?

Third, while I’m admittedly not the most skilled at translating Japanese kanji, I did research the kanji used for “Toei” from your renmei logo. They appear to be “earth” (do, to, or chi) and “splendid”/”English” (ei). The first kanji is the same used for Tosa, but the second (ei) is not an alternate reading of “so” in Tosa to my knowledge. Therefore, is “Toei” a renaming of Eishin-ryu by Mr. Sawada to somehow connect his teachings to Tosa?

Lastly, there are several errors and misconceptions in your layout of how gendai and koryu ranking is/was done, but I honestly don’t have time to comment on that now. I will say this however, while I’m not certain how things were done in Eishin-ryu prior to Oe sensei, I do know that the final license was Kongen no Maki (scroll of origin). The Yamauchi branch continues to award two lesser licenses, they are the Mokuroku (catalog) and the Shousho (certification). This may or may not be the original way Eishin-ryu was transmitted.

If Mr. Nishiuchi’s teacher did things differently and followed a Shoden-Kaiden structure, that would place him at roughly Sandan to Godan, assuming a Shodan-Judan equivalent. Does Mr. Nishiuchi award rank in Iai? If so, how is the system laid out?

So, in case you skimed through this, my questions are:

1. Who was Sawada Tomonobu’s teacher?
2. Does your lineage connect back to Oe sensei or someone else?
3. Do you practice any Tachiuchi no Kurai paired set? If so, how many kata are in it?
4. What is your translation of “Toei” and where/with whom did the name originate?
5. Does Mr. Nishiuchi award rank in Iai?
6. If so, how is the system laid out?

Finally, sorry for the length and I certainly don't mean to be offensive at all (if this post reads that way, I apologize). I think any answers that you could provide to the questions above would help us better understand your art and lineage to Tosa.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357489 - 11/14/07 09:24 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
SanjuroSensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: East Bay Cali
Mr. Bryant:

First let me say that I am impressed with your knowledge and devotion to our art and it is highly refreshing both spiritually and academically to find others as engaged as yourself as well as others on this site.

1-2. Sawada, Tomonobu succeeded Yamamoto, Haruske who succeeded Masaoko, Kuzumitsu and thus Oe Masamichi Roshu. I hopefully will have a photo of the original Japanese book that details this when I return from LA.

3. Yes, the kumitachi set are the same.

4. To=Tosa (also known as Kochi Japan, the birth place of Iaido), Ei=Eishin Chikaranosuke Hasegawa, the 7th successor who changed the drawn blade position from facing down to facing up which greatly expanded the samurai's initial cut options. As far as which headmaster coined this name to maintain Tosa Iai, I will defer to Shihan. However, I suspect it may have occured during Oe Masamichi or Masaoko, Kuzumitsu to re-iterate the direct lineage from the then controversial off shoots that accepted outsiders.

5. Yes. Originally it was based on a dan/kyu system with 6 kyu level - 6th kyu being the lowest. Shihan is now restructuring the tests to break the material into 10 kyu to help students progress without having to wait 1.5 years for their first test.

The Kendo master was indeed Nakayama Hakudo. It is also a testament to Hakudo's skill to only take notes and faithfully reproduce such great detail.

My information on the original kobudo menkyo can be verified by a book written by Kobudo Grandmaster Fumon, Tanaka (a if not "the" leading authority on the traditional martial arts in Japan) "Samurai Fighting Arts - The Spirit and the Practice". ISBN 4-7700-2898-9 offered by www.kodansha-intl.com for 3500 Yen.

I look forward to learning and understanding yours as well.

Respectfully always,
_________________________
Ossu!

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#357490 - 11/15/07 12:09 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I have to agree with AJ on this one. The highest old school license awarded in MJER is called Kongen no Maki. MJER has, at least to my knowledge, never used the Menkyo Kaiden license. It is my understanding that Kongen no Maki are still awarded in MJER, but are now by tradition only awarded from one Soke to the next, although I suppose there is nothing really stopping any current Kongen no Maki holder from passing their credentials on except perhaps ryuha fealty. Members of other ryuha, Yamanouchi for example, are clearly passing on their Kongen no Maki.

Nakayama Hakudo did not faithfully reproduce MJER teachings based on notes. While he was not allowed to train directly under Oe-sensei, he was introduced to some practitioners who were still practicing Shimomura-ha and he trained with them.

Sanjuro, I suspect the term Toei originates with either Nishiuchi-sensei or with Sawada-sensei. The lack of references to it online, and the fact that few of us have ever heard of it, lead me to suspect it is a fairly recently coined term. It also seems unlikely that a student of Oe Masamichi-sensei would change the name of the system which Oe-sensei had just gotten finished picking out, unless perhaps they were intentionally trying to distance themselves from Oe-sensei and his teachings.

One further point, the use of the Dan system is in no way indicative of an arts Koryu/Gendai status. The ranking/licensing system that the leadership of a particular art chooses to use, does not in any way reflect on the quality, or... for lack of a better word here... "koryuness" of a style. The MJER Seitokai organization is the organization that is led by Ikeda Takashi-soke, 22nd soke of MJER, with a clear lineage back to Oe-sensei, and through him back to Hayashizaki-sensei. There is no questioning that this is koryu MJER. It clearly fits the definition of the term. And yet Ikeda-soke issues dan ranks to his students. There are plenty of other koryu organizations which do likewise.

Your information on kobudo menkyo as they relate to MJER is definitely suspect as it is coming from a book written by someone who does not practice MJER. The information on Gendai Budo ranks are also very narrowly defined. Dan ranks go as high as 15 dan in some gendai arts. Probably a good bit higher. Some don't use kyu ranks at all. Still others use the kaiden ranks you enumerated in an attempt to appear more authentic and old school than they really are.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#357491 - 11/15/07 09:18 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: SanjuroSensei]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Thank you very much for getting back with me. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

You are certainly correct in your translation of the kanji for “Toei”; I missed the connection to Eishin-ryu. Interesting, but I agree with Charles, I doubt Oe sensei or even Yamamoto sensei would have used the name.

Yamamoto Haruske was direct student of Oe sensei and received Kongen no Maki. His lineage is known as the Harusuke-ha and influenced a lot of iaidoka in the Tokyo area. His lineage is pretty widespread in the UK and Canada thanks to Haruna Matsuo sensei. Yamamoto sensei made quite a few changes to the style based upon experimenting and mixing of elements from Tanimura-ha and Shimomura-ha. It is not generally thought that his lineage was a return to a more original form of Eishin-ryu...

By “Masaoko Kuzumitsu” do you mean Masaoka Kazumi? If so, he was also a direct student of Oe sensei and not Yamamoto sensei to my knowledge and his lineage is separate from the Harusuke-ha and known as the Masaoka-ha and pretty well known today through the Nippon Kobudo Jikishin-kai of Miura Takeyuki and here in the US through Masayuki Shimabukuro sensei.

So, as to lineage, I’m not sure I quite understand things yet. If you could post a short reply when you find out for sure, that would help clarify things quite a bit.

While Nakayama Hakudo was not allowed to study in Oe sensei’s dojo, he did receive direct instruction under Hosokawa sensei and eventually succeeded him. This was how Muso Shinden-ryu was born.

As to Mr. Nishiuchi’s rank structure, I was more interested in how he’s handling yudansha ranks. Does he use them (I assume so since he has kyu ranks), and how far does he go?

I would not put much faith in Tanaka Fumon’s books. He’s not very well respected in the koryu community. I didn’t mean to imply that you were wrong, just that things are not that narrowly defined as Charles said, especially within MJER.

As to my lineage, it is:

Oe Masamichi
Yamamoto Takuji (also studied Shimomura-ha under Soda Torahiko)
Tsugiyoshi (Jikichi) Ota (also received Kongen no Maki from Nagao Kagefusa)
Katsuo Yamaguchi

We informally call our lineage the “Yamaguchi-ha” though we recognize the current Soke Ikeda Takashi of what’s considered the main line (Seitokai).
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357492 - 11/15/07 12:56 PM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Im getting alot of good info from this thread, Thanks! but as always I have yet another series of questions:

1.) A.J., you said that
Quote:

We informally call our lineage the “Yamaguchi-ha” though we recognize the current Soke Ikeda Takashi of what’s considered the main line (Seitokai).





I have been under the impression that this was called "hokiyama-ha" after a different succession line than what you stated leading to Ikeda Takashi Soke.

2.) From what I understand, the Tanimura-ha and Shimamura-ha forked from the death of the 12th soke, and was united again from the 17th soke, do different ryu-ha recognized different lineages for the 13th through 16th then? Or does everyone just follow the Tanimura-ha?

3.) Is Muso Shinden Ryu then based off of a combonation of the iaijutsu from Oe masamichi and the kenjutsu of Nakayama Hakudo? (This one is more of clarification than an actual question)


Edited by fatguy (11/15/07 12:59 PM)
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Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357493 - 11/16/07 08:25 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
The “main” line of MJER is sometimes called the Hokiyama-ha after Hokiyama Namio, who received the “official” MJER documents of succession. This line leads straight to the modern Seitokai (Charles can elaborate on this).

When I talk about my line, I’m talking about something completely different. We have a direct and unconnected lineage back to Oe Masamichi that is separate from the Seitokai through Kongen no Maki succession. We have always maintained a close relationship with the main line though. I have video of Ota sensei attending some of the first ZNIR events in the early 1960s even though he was the director of the Iaido section of the International Martial Arts Federation (Kokusai Budoin).

#2. No. The art split into the two branches after the 11th headmaster (Oguro) but “officially” merged again with Oe Masamichi, who became 15th headmaster of the Shimomura-ha and 17th of the Tanimura-ha. His appointment as the 15th head of Shimomura-ha was either contested by several former students of the 14th headmaster, or they had all received Kongen no Maki and just continued on outside of Oe sensei’s control or possibly with his blessing (similar to how things occurred with MJER after the death of Oe sensei himself). One of these former students was Hosokawa Yoshimasa, who went his separate way and eventually taught Nakayama Hakudo and awarded him full transmission. Meanwhile, Oe sensei took what he thought was best from Shimomura-ha and incorporated it into his reformed MJER. His line effectively died out at that point and those elements deemed important were incorporated into MJER.

The Shimomura-ha still exists separate of either MJER or MSR in former Tosa. I have some video of embu where Shimomura-ha is demonstrated. It’s quite distinct from either of these two schools.

#3. No. It appears Nakayama Hakudo essentially gave up trying to practice in Oe sensei’s dojo and began studying Shimomura-ha with Hosokawa Yoshimasa and Yokimune Sadayoshi and eventually received complete transmission of the art, from Hosokawa I believe. He made various changes that led to the birth of Muso Shinden-ryu after his death.

I know it’s very confusing, and I'm sure there are some errors someone with more knowledge would point out, but I hope some of this made sense. If not, let me know.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357494 - 11/16/07 08:42 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
If by "made sense" you mean me getting the impression that we are one big dysfunctional family then yes

That did clear a lot up though, but one more question: is the close-to-the-original-as-possible Tanimura-ha and Shimamura-ha still practiced as separate entities in (Kochi) Tosa today?


Edited by fatguy (11/16/07 08:43 AM)
_________________________
Saya no uchi de katsu

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#357495 - 11/16/07 10:06 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: fatguy]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Yes... The Shimomura-ha is still practiced by one or two groups in Kochi. Iwata sensei’s group still maintains some elements of Shimomura-ha as kaewaza (variations) to their MJER as well, and some other groups might too.

For all intents and purposes the Tanimura-ha was simply renamed MJER by Oe sensei. But, if you mean does a more “close to the original as possible” MJER exist, well that’s debatable and could ruffle some feathers. If you mean does the original dojo of Oe sensei still exist in Kochi and does this dojo still maintain a less altered version of the art, including the preservation of most, if not all the paired sets not practiced by many lines, then yes. This dojo was run by Takeshima Toshio sensei who recently passed away. He was a student of Fukui Harumasa and designated an “assistant” or “small” (bonkei) soke after MJER left Kochi with Kono Hyakuren sensei.

Takeshima sensei was letting a few foreigners in to train (both westerners and Japanese outside of Kochi), but his successor, Muranaga Hidekami, has promptly closed the doors to those outside of Kochi. The general impression I’ve gotten though some private correspondence is that those in Kochi were “not happy” with the way succession went in leaving Kochi. Some other lines share a similar sentiment. Aren’t budo politics fun!
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#357496 - 11/26/07 07:56 AM Re: Buying an Iaito [Re: A.J. Bryant]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Sanjuro,

Hope you had a good holiday. Did you get a chance to speak with your teacher regarding some of the questions brought up in this thread; particularly the line of succession back to Oe sensei, use of the name Toei-ryu, and about dan ranks awarded in your organization?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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