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#356872 - 12/15/07 09:57 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
While the laws of quauntum mechanics are deeply mysterious, their effects are calculable to an astounding degree of accuracy. The same cannot be said for ki.

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#356873 - 12/15/07 11:29 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

While the laws of quauntum mechanics are deeply mysterious, their effects are calculable to an astounding degree of accuracy. The same cannot be said for ki.




Looks like its back to the same argument.
I should imagine calculable is the correct term. I believe most of it cant be physicaly proven so ki and quantum physics have something in commen.

Lets look at worry. It is a learned process not a trait. It effects humans in a realy bad way. It makes them ill. It cant be measured.

Lets look at the ki practioners way of dealing with it.
Looks to me like they should be able to cure it.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/15/07 11:36 PM)

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#356874 - 12/16/07 03:21 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
*Sigh*

You really do just read the parts you want to don't you?

Let's flip this round a little bit so we can stop going round in stupid circles...what exactly do you think Chi is? Could you define what it is you are so staunchly sure doesn't exist. What don't you think exists and what do you believe it actually is supposed to do? Let's make sure we all on the right page before you do another driveby "Chi doesn't exist!"

Funny as well that you mention quantum mechanics. I've only had the pleasure of speaking to one person who really had a grasp on quantum mechanics, a physics and advanced mathematics student and they thought Chi was a wonderful model of observation of the nature of reality for the lay person.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356875 - 12/16/07 07:04 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Tell me I contributed SOMETHING!




Yep , you did. So to the methods IMA's use?

Walking in bagau
Slow movements in Tai Chi
Correct body alignment gives more energy?
Meditation.

Heres one.
Train untill totaly knackered.
Then use the imagination to think of things that make you feel good or use pictures. I use music.
So now you feel good and are knackered.
Is there any more energy left to do that bit more?

I think there will be.
So using the mind gives extra energy.


Jude

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#356876 - 12/17/07 01:54 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
No.The validity of quantum mechanics can be proven--has been proven. Ki has not.

And while "worry" itself cannot be measured, the physiological effects of stress--e.g. increased blood pressure, heart rate, etc--can be. This is not true of ki.

The fact is every attempt to scientifically demonstrate ki has failed. The only reason belief in ki persists is becasue some people desperately WANT to believe in it.

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#356877 - 12/17/07 05:00 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

No.The validity of quantum mechanics can be proven--has been proven. Ki has not.




How has the all of the validity of quantum mechanics been proven?
By maths?

Quote:


And while "worry" itself cannot be measured, the physiological effects of stress--e.g. increased blood pressure, heart rate, etc--can be. This is not true of ki.




That wasnt the point I was making. Do people with a relaxed mind worry? If a person is prone to worry and that person can be given methods to stop by a person who believes in ki
was the point I was making. Controlling a persons own mind
Doesnt means to say they have to believe in it to be cured.
From my readings IMA's work on such a thing as a relaxed mind that can be used during conflict.
Have you read what the purpose of IMA'S are?

Quote:


The fact is every attempt to scientifically demonstrate ki has failed. The only reason belief in ki persists is becasue some people desperately WANT to believe in it.





That applies to a mulitude of things. Some would bring a greater argument from a larger population of the world. So does that apply to those as well?


If the benefits can be gained from following that course of study does it matter if it can be proven or not?

Jude

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#356878 - 12/17/07 06:39 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Jude, you're wasting your time mate.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356879 - 12/17/07 10:52 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
If you want a god exposition of quantum theory, any number of decent popular books are available. Start with McMahon's Quantum Mechanics Demystified.

As for the rest, I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are trying to say. I would guess you are either a non-native English speaker (which is certainly no crime) or are being deliberately obtuse (which is).

And Gavin, I am the one trying to be rational here.

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#356880 - 12/17/07 10:57 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

...they thought Chi was a wonderful model of observation of the nature of reality for the lay person.


Best I've heard so far in this thread.

I don't know how many times I've said this in the past, but I'll say it again.

Qi is an umbrella term used to describe a range of natural phenomena that the ancients had no means of explanation or quantitative measurement given their level of technology. Like Bossman said, treat it like an "idea" - a theoretical concept, a convenient means to "explain" real world observations without the scientific mumbo-jumbo, a hypothetical construct... nothing more.

If you think Qi is some primordial, mystical energy or life force strong enough to knock someone over from 3 feet away... forget about it. Ain't gunna happen. Don't waste your time chasing the Qi dragon...

You'd be better off actually doing some training and learning about bio-mechanics and bio-feedback. (I)MA... it's a "feeling" thing... not a thinking thing.

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#356881 - 12/17/07 11:01 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
No, I don't just read the parts I want. But if I am engaged in a discussion with one person--in this case, Jude33--I sometimes miss comments from the peanut gallery.

By "chi" I am talking about the alleged internal energy that allows martial artist (and others) to transcend normal phyiscal laws and limitations.

There is a popular saying in science: "Anyone who says they understand quantum theory doesn't understand quantum theory." Thats aid, people claiming there are parallels between modern physics and Eastern mysticism is nothing new; New Age guru/charlatan Deepak Chopra has attarcted millions of followers (and their dollars) peddling this sort of snake oil.

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