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#356772 - 09/02/07 09:17 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, good article... very enjoyable.

Quote:

what I mean is, that psychological connection can allow a technique to work smoothly in the dojo - but not so well outside the dojo culture against someone truely resisting.




I don't know how others train, but the more you resist, the better my techniques work, and the more dynamic they are. FWIW

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356773 - 09/02/07 09:47 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I have no reason not to believe you.
Good discussion, Grady.

the most interesting to me in chats like this are the questions that AREN'T addressed. The black holes, dark matter, vortexes, empty space and chakras of the conversation.

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#356774 - 09/03/07 01:35 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

the most interesting to me in chats like this are the questions that AREN'T addressed. The black holes, dark matter, vortexes, empty space and chakras of the conversation.




Well, I "google-fued" your argument about Kirlian photography and it was as I remembered. What has been debunked is "aura" uses of the Kirlian technique...
FYI.

From Wikipedia... knower of all things past, present, and hopefully helpful...

Quote:

Kirlian photography is completely different from "Aura photography," in which a colorful image is produced of a persons face and upper torso, using various methods of biofeedback. People commonly use the term "Kirlian photography" to erroneously refer to "Aura photography," and vice-versa. The terms have almost become interchangeable, even though the techniques are completely different. This leads to confusion among those who not familiar with the two different techniques. The Kirlian technique is contact photography, in which the subject is in direct contact with the film which is placed upon a metal plate that is charged with high voltage, high frequency electricity. In Aura Photography, no high voltage is involved as with the Kirlian technique, and no direct contact with the film is made. The images made with an Aura camera do not result from coronal discharge, the colors are projected with fiber optics.




My point was that it was a "contact" imaging technique, and is legitimate. "Aura" photography falls right in with chi-balls and black holes.

FWIW

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356775 - 09/03/07 06:19 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography,





you are kidding right? kirilian photography with respect to it showing energy fields has been quite debunked (actually, thats a good one for the show 'mythbusters' since people still sell and buy this phenomenon). Here's how it's debunked: put an object in a vacuum and the 'aura' goes away. The effect is caused by moisture, pressure and air. take away the moisture and air, and you get no aura. Also, inanimate and inorganic man-made objects, like a plastic leaf from a fake plant also produce a spectactular 'life force' with this photography. does a synthetic leaf have ki energy or chi circulation?







I think wristtwister is right.The only part that was debunked is the paranormal claims part.The experiment still shows energy in motion. The gas ionization photographed around the body needed a living body with electro and mechanical energy in the body as well as the other elements required for the experiment. The fact it wouldnt work in a vacuum only proved it wasnt paranormal.It doesnt disprove the human body is a walking bundle of electro and mechanical energy.

Jude

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#356776 - 09/03/07 06:37 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Now is chi a term for energy?


No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.

Qi/Ki in the TCM context is essentially an "umbrella term" ascribed to a range of phenomena - for which the ancients had no (scientific or otherwise) explanation. Also, qi is not an "entity"... it is simply a term used to describe the functional aspects of "something" within the context of the "system" being described. E.g. ten ki/tian qi - qi/ki used in the context of the sky or "heavens" simply means "weather". It doesn't mean the heavens have "qi" - although it may have been believed to be at one time, when pre-historic people imagined unknown and unseen forces to be the machinations of the "gods" and "sprites".

So, any discussion of qi/ki and what it is, apart from being off-topic, is entirely misleading. What can you do with it has already been mostly addressed in the earlier part of this thread - i.e. well-being, health, martial applications etc.

However, health and well-being is a complex subject, and can be affected by a range of things e.g. genetics, diet, lifestyle, and environment - all of which are described as in TCM as "qi" AND from a functional perspective. Of course, in MWM terms, we have an entirely different syntax (language) and context to describe these things.

So, I think, for all intents and purposes, the discussion of what can you do with qi/ki, should be limited to martial applications.

And to throw a wrench into the works, Ki of the Heavens can also mean "gravity". So, if I push into you with one finger to take your CoG beyond the point where you have to topple over, theoretically speaking, I am "borrowing" the Ki of Heaven to throw you.




Thanks .
With chi Im still none the wiser. Not yet.
I will re read what you have written again. I understand the c.o.g part. I use it in sparring/ training on unknowing opponents. Just to go off topic I am looking at rooting and spirreling as discussed by hsing i/bagau practioners
who also refer to circleing found in ju jitsu and aikido.

Getting head aches with that as well. Ah well back to the studies.

Jude

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#356777 - 09/03/07 07:33 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Quote:
Now is chi a term for energy?

No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.




I actually disagree with that. Ki/Qi I think translates perfectly well to energy. The Chinese would say that everything is merely of a manifestation of Qi. Whilst there are many forms of Qi within the Oriental Medicine model, they all are a manifestation Qi that has gone through a particular transformation to manifest in any particular state. I think this is where the theory correlates very well with western physic's saying that at a base level all matter is energy and thus made of the same stuff.

I'd like to throw a question out to the crowd...how many of you use Windows on your computer? If you do, I'd like to ask why you don't use an operating system system like Linux ? If you're using Linux how many of you compile your own kernal? If you're doing that I might ask why you're even bothering to do that, why not just simply write your own code to directly with the hardware within your computer? Obviously to use the tools you've been given you need to be able to understand computer science down to a level whereby you interact directly with the hardware don't you? Actually whilst we are here, why don't you actually make your own hardware?

So why do you use windows? Could it be that someone has done all the hard work and provided you with something you can use straight out of the box? Could it be that you can now make movies, web pages, computer applications and use your computer at a fairly high level without having to be a computer science PHD. Could you be using windows because it is a simple model upon which you could do things that otherwise would be greatly outside of your capabilities? Obviously there are some that want to have more control over their computer so they may pick Linux or another UNIX system. Then there maybe some that want to go to university and make there own operating system. Those that know computer engineers will testify that most operate a such a low level most are oblivious to what more high level users are doing or even want.

To me, oriental medicine is the windows (perhaps Linux would be more accurate) of the medical world (or Martial). It is a neat package that allows me to interact with the body at a fairly deep level without being a Doctor. How many top doctors do you see specializing in more than one specific bodily system? You don't see many Cardiac Specialist hacking open someones skull to play with their brain do you? Although you do have General Practitioners who act as a front line to refer to specialists. Most GP's knowledge whom I've spoken to is patchy at best, what they need is a general model, a Windows for the body, in which to be able to operate in a general more holistic manner.

It dawned on me that I haven't answered the question of what I can do with Chi. My answer would be nothing that every single one of us is capable. What I will do is answer a question as to what I've done with the "model of observation" that is Chi just this year. Within the space of a month of treatments a lady who came to me on anti-depressants was off them. Another lady reduced the amount of pain killers she was taking within two treatments as part of her rehab after an operation to virtually nothing. I've helped relieve more than a dozen re-occuring injuries that other forms of therapy haven't help. I've helped well over 100 martial artists better understand their arts.

For all the bitching and whining that is going on about proof I'd like to flip the question around. Using your model of observation of the world, what have you done? How many of you have made the world a better place for you being here? How many lives have you touched for the better? To me, the results justify the means and a good yardstick for how well you've lived your life is to look at the good you've done for world. Has your cynicism benefited the world? Is the world a better place for you having been here? If it is, then what the f*ck difference does it make how you view the world?

And for the record I very rarely mention the word Chi in anything I do. I just share my understanding of how the world works with people. During my treatments, unless asked, I don't tell the person what I'm doing. They've come to me because they trust in my abilities and the results they produce. As I said, using your model of observation and experience, what have you done with it for the betterment of the world?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356778 - 09/03/07 07:46 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ah...now you google-fu'ers rely on wikipedia.

Quote:

The experiment still shows energy in motion. The gas ionization photographed around the body needed a living body with electro and mechanical energy in the body as well as the other elements required for the experiment. The fact it wouldnt work in a vacuum only proved it wasnt paranormal.It doesnt disprove the human body is a walking bundle of electro and mechanical energy.




wrong. keep reading, google-meister. it doesn't need a living body. it's also true that a plastic, synthetic made leaf and a coin and a twinkie also have the same 'bundle of electro energy' as 'evidenced' by the photography.

it's not evidence that the human body is 'emitting' anything mysterious or unique, like wristwister was originally suggesting. He context it in terms of evidencing Ki - when he looked it up on wikipedia like google-fuer's do, he redefined his suggestion to fit within the more reasonable. (by negating the confused term 'aura photography').

thats how things like this get misunderstood - you look at a kirlian photo of a hand and see the effect of it within an electrical field and determine 'energy in the hand is interacting and causing the field disturbance....therefore the human body must have a life force of some kind.'
which is EXACTLY why wristwister mentioned it in the first place, in the hopes to further his point of evidence of Ki.

however, my earlier question went unanswered: does a synthetic leaf made out of plastic emit an energy? does a twinkie have 'ki'? because they sure do produce a spectacular kirlian effect...even better than a hand.

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#356779 - 09/03/07 07:55 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Now is chi a term for energy?

No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.




I actually disagree with that. Ki/Qi I think translates perfectly well to energy. The Chinese would say that everything is merely of a manifestation of Qi. Whilst there are many forms of Qi within the Oriental Medicine model, they all are a manifestation Qi that has gone through a particular transformation to manifest in any particular state. I think this is where the theory correlates very well with western physic saying that at a base level all matter is energy and thus made of the same stuff.



Mate, read the rest of the paragraph... especially the bit where it says doesn't quite "encapsulate the richness"...

FWIW, in terms of martial application, I think "force", and in particular, "pressure" is a more accurate description, although I don't disagree with what you said. "Energy", IMHO, is a little too vague.

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#356780 - 09/03/07 07:59 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Yeah my bad...I just read the quote rather than your actual post! I agree!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356781 - 09/03/07 08:07 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
using your operating system analogy...why would you install a much older version?

your question to everyone that assumes you are morally on higher ground since you took depressed people's money to show them how to feel better about themselves without using western science qualification, that you somehow contributed more to Humanity....teach hundreds of kids math and science for free, teach English in a foreign country to kids for free, have kids of your own and raise them to the best of your ability, while sacrificing your own wants and desires. sell your condo and put ALL of the equity in your kids bank account for their college education. teach martial arts for free.

you always try to change these conversations to the personal...you don't know everyone on here, you have no idea what people have contributed and sacrificed during their lives - so how can you even begin to compare?

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