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#356822 - 09/05/07 11:27 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Ed:

What do you make of the now accepted usage of Accupuncture in the treatment of pain or other assorted diseases in Western Hospitals? It survived the double blind route and works sufficently such that its sanctioned...

Jeff



Good question. Probably for the same reason there are also hospital chaplains and psychiatrists on staff. Although the alternative treatment can't be 'proven' to cure anything, it CAN be proven to 'do no harm'.
Which was found to be the case with acupuncture needles in 1996.

so I'm not sure it's as accurate to say that western medicine necessarily reguards this type of treatment as comperable to scientific method...they can only say "if something feels better and is deemed safe, then go for it."

once the needles and qualifications were regulated, acupuncture was deemed 'safe to do no harm'.

besides, it's popularity increases revenue for the hospitals while directing the flow of minor ailments as well as long-term chronic ailments, easing burden of doctors to treat the serious physical injuries.






http://www.felixmann.co.uk/Scientific_Acupunture.pdf


I am not to sure if there is a kids version of this article, should it seem complicated to anybody , but I think it gives a good argument in practical terms and explains in some ways how accupuncture works in a somewhat medical manner.

He states meridans etc dont exist but accupuncture does work amd seemingly proves it?
Jude

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#356823 - 10/04/07 08:20 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
While I was over at the physical therapist's having my hip worked on today, I read an article in the Arthritis Foundation newsletter about acupuncture.

Their explanation was that the meridians do exist, but as a system of connective tissue that threads throughout the body roughly following the autonomic nervous system. The technique of acupuncture is done with fine needles, and their impact is to both stimulate the nerves, and to cause a "mini-trauma" at the site of the penetration which the body's healing defenses attack.

The thrust of the article was that the technique of acupuncture worked for relieving arthritis pain and inflammation by using the body's own healing system. "Balancing chi" is a method of having the body's own systems heal irritations and arthritic joint areas without excessively dangerous medicines which have numerous side effects.

Apparently, Western medicine is beginning to understand some of the methods of TCM and have developed "understandable" explanations for why and how it works.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356824 - 10/04/07 11:24 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I have no doubt people feel better for a while after treatment.

The problem I have is with the results of the controlled tests. There are several, but here is a typical one:
Quote:

A controlled trial of the theory of acupuncture in musculoskeletal pain.Godfrey CM, Morgan P.
We carried out a randomized trail compraing acupuncture done is theoretically correct [appropriate] and incorrect [inappropirate] locations for chronic musculoskeletal pains in various sites. Throughout the trial, neither the patient, nor the assessor, nor the acupuncturist, knew if the site of the acupuncture was appropriate to the patient's symptoms according to acupuncture theory. Although 60% had reduced pain after three treatments, there was no significant difference between the treatments. Our findings, while not disproving the value of acupuncture, do not support the theory that certain specific points must be needled to relieve specific areas of pain.




while not disproving anything, it does point to something else that may be going on, other than acupuncture's effect on certain specific points along a conceptual pathway. yet results like these, believers would categorize as 'inconclusive'....which is technically true, since there was no difference in results one way or the other, but it's a bit of a misnomer.


This is just one study. similar studies had similar results. The only studies I have seen which contradict these findings are by groups with invested interest in the study's outcome....of which studies, tend to be non-blinded tests.


to be fair, an equal argument could be that perhaps the MD's doing the studies also 'cooked' the tests and/or results somehow, for THEIR own agenda. fair point. I would like to see a joint and agreed upon study with representives from each side observing the tests. I haven't heard of any such joint tests.


that aside, similar tests have been done with various faith healing with familiar results. The control being: one group is serviced by a non-believer, the other group is serviced by a believer. both groups are told the person they are being serviced by are legitimate people of their same faith to 'heal' their pain.
Both groups reported slight improvement in their pain reduction...but the difference between the groups was negligible.

positive thinking, visualization, wanting to get well, hope, faith, motivation, feeling cared for/loved, etc ...all of these things can improve what is being focused on - but if that improvement is independant of the specific treatment, then that specific treatment cannot be the credited cause.

it's perhaps a cold way of thinking about it, since if it helps, it helps - period. end of discussion. but if we REALLY want to understand whats going on, we have to ask why and test it without bias.

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#356825 - 10/04/07 11:33 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
btw, I think one way the alternative wellness centers can/have actually helped in a real way, is by pointing out that if a patient is cared for mentally, emotionally and socially - it can add to the effectiveness of physical cures by providing the Human element of 'bedside mannor' which Western MD's tend to lack. One thing that is striking and impressive in alternative wellness centers is the catering to the person, perhaps even pampering....who wouldn't feel better after being 'treated well'.


looking at it in the extreme...
'will to live'...what is that? can't look at it under a microscope. I don't need to give examples of it, it's commonly and intuitively understood that it is very real. flip that around and equally witnessed is the notion of an instilled 'will to die'.

there is no doubt psychological states of mind cause very real physiological effects. They should not be dismissed or misunderstood in exchange for beliefs of anyone's choice.



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#356826 - 10/05/07 12:03 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Their explanation was that the meridians do exist, but as a system of connective tissue that threads throughout the body roughly following the autonomic nervous system.


Well, well, well... connective tissues, fascia, myofascia, and associated structures...

Here's an interesting tidbit for those who might be interested. Many acupuncturists have described the sensation of the needle being "grabbed" (by the qi) at the site when the needle has been inserted correctly. TCM researchers have for some time now, identified the connective tissue as having a major functional role in the concept of qi, and have traditionally referred to the properties of the connective tissue as "the qi". Interestingly enough, Rolf and Alexander had different takes on the same things.

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#356827 - 10/05/07 07:16 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Maybe the most interesting aspect of the meridians is the "routing" of them throughout the body. While I have trouble keeping them straight these days, I finally understand that they are "routed" through the body along the connective tissue of the colon and bowel, which loop, fold, and reverse all over the body, which is why they have such odd shapes and points where they "surface". Having been established long before X-ray machines were even thought of, I find it amazing that TCM doctors were able to establish the "points" so accurately.

If you follow the autonomic nervous system and the circulatory systems of the body, you have most of the points of the meridians defined. Those that are not, are usually part of the lymphatic system, and close to the surface. Where the "art" of acupuncture came in, was in the ability to put the needles in exactly the right depth (as well as the right place).

Now the question arises about dim mak techniques... if you can "needle" the points and cause them to heal, can you not damage those same points and cause harm? The skeptics say no, but "if" acupuncture works as is becoming medically accepted, how can the reverse not also be true?

I once explained on the boards that dim mak techniques were like "unopened e-mails" in the body, and as the body's systems healed the damage, blood clots or nerve damage caused system shutdowns or organ damage as they released their "information" to the nervous and circulatory systems... which was the idea behind someone being killed weeks later from a strike to a vital point.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356828 - 10/06/07 01:31 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not to go off on a tangent, but thats an intersting point about depth and location of the needles....what happens when they have to perform accupuncture on a really fat guy with 3 necks and 2 back flaps? lol
sorry.


btw, 2 reasons why acupuncture is now accepted, not AS western practice, but it's accepted as doing no harm. The reason is because the needles are regulated as medical instruments. If preists used needles to perform exorcisms, and those needles were regulated, then it would be said that exorcisms are 'accepted' as well. 2nd reason: since the needles are regulated and accupuncture is deemed as doing no harm, most health insurance companies will cover it....just like they cover hypnotism to quit smoking. Since insurance covers it, there is direct and indirect money to be made by any hospital/doctor sponsoring and/or referring anything that is covered.

most MD's that I've talked to have a 'sure why not' approach when officially asked about alternative therepies. they even recommend people to places in the area. hospitals have brocures and guides to alternative health, some have centers built right into the hospital. why wouldn't they. 'sure why not'.

however, when MD friends confide in private over the dinner table, you get a reason behind that 'sure why not' approach to acceptance of alternative and wellness services. They don't deny the benefit of placebo effect...it's the psudoscience used to describe their causes, which create quite a majority of non-acceptance. but if studies show no adverse effects with placebo gain - 'sure why not'. MD's have no interest in debating an individual's beliefs.


if you are into training to kill with one strike by pinpointing where their chi would be disrupted, sure why not...whatever keeps the students coming in.


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#356829 - 10/06/07 01:16 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Interesting. I read an article on CNN's online site that cited a German study that showed fake accupuncture works almost as well as real accupuncture. Placebo effect?
Don't know, and it is only one study, but...

Here's the link to a Newspaper article that talks about the same study.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Back-Pain-Acupuncture.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

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#356830 - 10/27/07 07:01 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Nothing. Chi does not exist.

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#356831 - 11/26/07 07:03 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Or maybe they actually work for whatever reason and have a definite effect. Why not? It could happen.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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