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#356762 - 09/02/07 10:49 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I don't deny that chi-based MAists can be extremely skilled - I just reject what many attribute the skill to.

wristwister's hand likely guided the uke more than the student....and the connection being more of a ideomotor effect, than a projection of energy.

found a good and detailed article here with a 0.3 sec google query as part of my 5 minute research methods if anyone wants to read up on it more:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html

not chi-bashing. using the optional chi construct as a tool to imagine complex physics is visualization - thats cool. Describing chi as a paranormal phenomenon is something else.

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#356763 - 09/02/07 01:51 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography,



you are kidding right? kirilian photography with respect to it showing energy fields has been quite debunked (actually, thats a good one for the show 'mythbusters' since people still sell and buy this phenomenon). Here's how it's debunked: put an object in a vacuum and the 'aura' goes away. The effect is caused by moisture, pressure and air. take away the moisture and air, and you get no aura. Also, inanimate and inorganic man-made objects, like a plastic leaf from a fake plant also produce a spectactular 'life force' with this photography. does a synthetic leaf have ki energy or chi circulation?







Everything in the universe has some form of energy according to physics. Atoms and their subparticles are/have/ give off energy? Isnt moisture a way of allowing electricity to flow? Isnt electricity termed as a form of energy? Remove the moisture and the energy cant flow? Life force? Define life force? Maybe it wasnt life force he meant what ever life force is. I dont know anything about the kirilin photography but what I have read about is that the role of sodium atoms in the generation of a nerve impulse. The energy source and the signal source for each neuron is the electrially charged sodium ion.(electicity is termed as energy?) In other words electrochemical reactions in the human body.

Now is chi a term for energy? The term chi as I said I dont fully understand yet but at this moment in time I am sitting on the fence.Perhaps all the false claims made by certain people about chi doesnt mean that chi doesnt exist merely that what they are doing might be B.S.

Perhaps the true meaning of chi is energy and maybe a name given by some one at some time to explain their ideas on the electro chemical workings of the human body? I dont know. What I do know is that certain techniques using the human body in the correct way (muscle torque, momentum etc) gives a lot more power to the technique. So maybe as usual with humans the word chi to describe a form of energy has got away from the original intention. I dont know.

But rather then write off claims off chi I personaly would like to explore it further.

Wrist twister to a degree I think I can see your points but as usual it is early days.

I am still trying to work out the true meaning of the term chi

Jude

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#356764 - 09/02/07 02:46 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I don't deny that chi-based MAists can be extremely skilled - I just reject what many attribute the skill to.



That’s because you choose not to believe in anything you can’t put into your neat framework of “this causes that, and that causes this”. We’re not talking chi-balls here, simply joining energy with one another. Are you saying electrical energy and potential fields won’t combine if held closely together? If so, you’re changing the entire field of electrical engineering. Use your “google-fu” to study capacitors, and see how they’re made.

Quote:

wristwister's hand likely guided the uke more than the student....and the connection being more of a ideomotor effect, than a projection of energy.




Wrong answer, but thank you for playing. The uke couldn’t see what I did unless his peripheral vision picked it up. He was looking up and away when I” loaned her my fingers”.


What I picked up from the article you quoted is that first of all, the author set up the framework of the “proof” as proof before establishing anything, so like most scientific “proofs” … if we can’t duplicate it, it can’t be happening, especially as advertised. I especially like how they cover all their bases so if you come to the defense of something they can’t disprove you’re automatically falling into one of their “groups” of “misguided followers”.

Ideomotor action , for instance… would be techniques dependent on “undetectable motor movement”… if there’s movement, the science gurus should be able to detect it. Remember the premise… if we can’t measure it and duplicate it, it can’t be happening.

Projection of the operator’s action to an external force … Only ki is projecting internal energy into external action, so they are disproving the reverse theory, and claiming it as “proof” that ki doesn’t exist, right? Even in their arguments, they can’t have it both ways. This isn’t using the dowsing rod, but simply extending energy from one person to another through contact, and applying that energy to create a technique, either of healing or martial arts.


The rest of their “proofs” lay in establishing “the hoodwinked society” of believers that were automatically misguided followers of the phenomena since they couldn’t prove or disprove it…

The cause of the action is attributed to forces new to science and revolutionary in nature … What have they been smokin’? Chi has been used for over 2000 years in both TCM and martial arts sciences… their “new” proofs are the only “new” things around here.

Delusions of Grandeur … boy, they did hit that one on the head. Scientists always have those. They constantly “prove and disprove” each other and every one of them is the smartest guy in the world… until next week when their findings are disputed. The pharmaceutical industry is rift with “miracles of science” that turn out to be nightmares, as their “miracle medicines” start killing people who believe in them, and take their medications. How many “chi” recalls have you seen?

Delusions of persecution … Those same people do have delusions of persecution as well… they believe they have all the answers, and their own pig-headedness, conformism, and unwillingness to give credit to any idea except their own “proofs” tend to exclude outsiders from the scientific establishment… back to the idea “if we can’t prove it, it can’t be happening”.

To be forewarned is to be disarmed … Where the scientist will accuse the “charlatan” of warning the audience that “this doesn’t work on everyone”, they take the same approach to scientific proofs… a la “undetectable motion”, undefineable movements, etc. They simply “craft the language” so that if they can’t prove something… you guessed it… it can’t be happening. It’s either a trick or a clever deception.

Self-healing belief systems … This is the favorite argument of science-based “myth-busters”. They allude to everything they can’t detect, trace or disprove to being part of the “hoodwinked society’s” illusions regarding the phenomenen. This is the way to close any loopholes in their research, and to ascribe all “undetectable items” to psychological deceptions on the part of the supposed charlatan.

What the clown that wrote this article missed including was the “God complex” of scientists… for they seem to think that no matter what they think, it must be true because they can offer “proof”.
Go back through history and see how science has changed over the years, and how many “scientific proofs” have been debunked and proved to be frauds. Look at how scientists have fought tooth and nail over “definitive science” in every area of endeavor. Then look at how the “art” of ki projection and chi healing have survived.

Remember, Ed, radio waves don't exist... I looked inside my radio and didn't see any of them, and I stuck my hand in there and couldn't feel any of them. But if you think radio waves do exist, do you believe in "transmitters" and "receivers"? Who's to say that chi doesn't work the same way?.. the scientists, who don't want to believe in it to start with because they can't make money on it?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356765 - 09/02/07 03:07 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
well, thanks for the edumacation. next time I use an ouija board with the kids, and it types out your name, I'll be sure to let them know your chi is STRONG!

lol...I still can't believe you pulled out 'Kirlian photography' into the argument. haha. When I was getting my Electrical engineering degree at B.U., for fun, we actually DID take a look at this phenomenon that was getting a resurgence of press at the time. you shoulda seen the awesome aura a twinkie gives out! haha...thanks again for the laugh.


btw...hows that million dollar challenge application coming along?
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

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#356766 - 09/02/07 03:44 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Quote:

Delusions of Grandeur … boy, they did hit that one on the head. Scientists always have those. They constantly “prove and disprove” each other and every one of them is the smartest guy in the world… until next week when their findings are disputed. The pharmaceutical industry is rift with “miracles of science” that turn out to be nightmares, as their “miracle medicines” start killing people who believe in them, and take their medications. How many “chi” recalls have you seen?



That's what science is, a series of trials and errors. We wouldn't have come this far in science if nobody contested theories, tests, hypotheses, etcetera. Did you know people used to think that living organisms can be born from inanimate objects? You know what happened? A scientist decided to prove it wrong, and he did. Did you know we used to think that everything revolved around Earth? A scientist decided to prove it wrong, and he did. Do you know there are people who are contesting Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity? I can go on and on, but I hope my point was made. Everything we know came from scientists disproving each other, and if you ask me, it's a lot better than everyone agreeing on the same thing, which would result in no progress at all.

Quote:

Then look at how the “art” of ki projection and chi healing have survived.



All thanks to Dragon Ball Z (even though it's my favorite show).

I apologize if I sounded rude, but by no means was that my intention. I greatly apologize if that's what I came across as.

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#356767 - 09/02/07 03:58 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
tell you what, for the sake of entertainment, let me do something unprecidented and assume your observations are valid on all counts.

question 1: assuming you did interact with another persons intrinsic energy without making contact, which caused them to execute a proper technique. How do you then conclude it was 'ki' and nothing else? How do exclude divine intervention? some cultures would interpret that same act as a sign from god(s)...why is that an invalid interpretation? I could go on with a list of possible explainations based on various belief systems...why is your interpretation as it being 'ki' the only one possible?

question 2: You studied MA and various IMA's for a combined 40+ years, yes? am I to understand this was an isolated event and you can't interact your ki at will? If so, then you should be able to interact it without touch to a blindfolded stranger who has never studied Aikido - is that correct?

question 3: If science can't disprove something, then you don't believe it is scientifically explainable...but yet if TCM/IMA, etc can't prove something, it's only because it does not have to go thru the same scrutany since it's beyond current science explaination?

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#356768 - 09/02/07 05:32 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, this is all for entertainment.

I simply think that too much is made of being able to "prove" everything in the world. Martial arts techniques are all "the now", as in zen, and either work or they don't. Teaching someone to gain a proper position or movement by "extending ki" is no different than you telling them to strike into the elbow joint to changed the shape of their arm. You say "tomato", I say "to-mahto"...

Ki is a subject for discussion... and if you think you have to prove or disprove it's existance, go for it. After all your scientific study, I'll bet I can still find people who believe in it's characteristics, use, and qualities... and they aren't charlatans, they simply think differently.

Was Da Vinci a scientist or an artist?... and did he learn more from his scientific studies, or his art studies? I think we learn from a lot of different areas, and if you choose not to define ki in anything but scientific terms, that's your choice. I choose to use it as a technique of teaching and learning martial arts... of teaching a student to express energy in different ways and to protect themselves using concepts that are thousands of years old.

If they work, then it's not a bad way to learn. If not, then we need a different explanation... right now, it works.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356769 - 09/02/07 05:43 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
agreed. I can't disprove 'ki' as an energy, but many can prove that it's a belief.

so...does this mean you aren't going to collect your $1,000,000 then?

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#356770 - 09/02/07 06:08 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
with respect to the thread topic...

This seems to be a well-balanced summary:
http://shugenkai.com/ki.htm

the only aspect I'd cautiously add to that is the psychological connection between uke and partner, between student and teacher, and between dojo culture and class.

what I mean is, that psychological connection can allow a technique to work smoothly in the dojo - but not so well outside the dojo culture against someone truely resisting.

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#356771 - 09/02/07 07:42 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Everything in the universe has some form of energy according to physics. Atoms and their subparticles are/have/ give off energy? Isnt moisture a way of allowing electricity to flow? Isnt electricity termed as a form of energy? Remove the moisture and the energy cant flow?


Don't you mean "conduct" and "transferred" rather than "flow"?

Quote:

Now is chi a term for energy?


No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.

Qi/Ki in the TCM context is essentially an "umbrella term" ascribed to a range of phenomena - for which the ancients had no (scientific or otherwise) explanation. Also, qi is not an "entity"... it is simply a term used to describe the functional aspects of "something" within the context of the "system" being described. E.g. ten ki/tian qi - qi/ki used in the context of the sky or "heavens" simply means "weather". It doesn't mean the heavens have "qi" - although it may have been believed to be at one time, when pre-historic people imagined unknown and unseen forces to be the machinations of the "gods" and "sprites".

So, any discussion of qi/ki and what it is, apart from being off-topic, is entirely misleading. What can you do with it has already been mostly addressed in the earlier part of this thread - i.e. well-being, health, martial applications etc.

However, health and well-being is a complex subject, and can be affected by a range of things e.g. genetics, diet, lifestyle, and environment - all of which are described as in TCM as "qi" AND from a functional perspective. Of course, in MWM terms, we have an entirely different syntax (language) and context to describe these things.

So, I think, for all intents and purposes, the discussion of what can you do with qi/ki, should be limited to martial applications.

And to throw a wrench into the works, Ki of the Heavens can also mean "gravity". So, if I push into you with one finger to take your CoG beyond the point where you have to topple over, theoretically speaking, I am "borrowing" the Ki of Heaven to throw you.


Edited by eyrie (09/02/07 07:45 PM)

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