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#356742 - 08/31/07 11:42 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Hey... I resemble that remark... (old man with arthritis)

Maybe I can find a job as a barometer...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356743 - 09/01/07 12:02 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
at least science and physics doesn't have to rely on isolated cases of miracles. sure there are unexplained 'miracles'...I like to call them 'anomolies'. but miracles aren't what hold up a building, cure diseases, and prolong life expectancy.

all you have to do is look at a timeline of worldwide life expectancy chart...it goes from low 40's in 1800 and takes a drastic turn (in countries that embraced western medicine) to high 50's in 1900, to 80 years old today. That, my friend matches the curve of scientific acheivment...it is NOT an indicator of more people using chi-based methodology.

if self-preservation is the long-term name of the game - then science wins. it's indisputable.

isn't that worth anything? I mean, if it wasn't for scientific method starting in the 19th century, we'd be 'harnessing our chi' till we die at 40...and never know the possibility of living to twice that age.

people are spoiled (or ignorant), don't appreciate the advances science and western medicine has given the world in the past 200 years, and don't give credit where it's due. On a macro scale, what has chi-centric medicine given us as a society? nothing except maybe a good massage. which is why people have to resort to tales of isolated miracles via hearsay to give the impression of 'proof' of it's worth.


Absolutely true story, I swear on my father's memory: I touched my brother-in-law and I knew he had liver disease. Wanna know how? his skin was discolored a yellow tinge and he was an incurable alcoholic. he died at 35 years old. must be a miracle I 'sensed' his ailment.

p.s. After watching live on TV the 1980 Hockey olympics of the US team, I certainly DO believe in miracles! I just don't bank on them. I WANT them to always be true...but reality reports to me differently.

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#356744 - 09/01/07 12:09 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Actually, some of the healthiest people I know balance their practice of Eastern and Western medicine. The human being is a mind, body, and spirit. So something as simple as praying every day can have a huge effect in some cases. This is something that has been mentioned in a few periodicals, with doctors endorsing the concept. Treat the person, as a whole person, not just the ailment.

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#356745 - 09/01/07 12:19 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
"some of the healthiest people I know"

hardly a long-term or wide-reaching figure.

average age of death in China 1000AD: 30
average age of death before western medicine in 1800 China: 40.
average age of death in 1900 China: 57.
average age of death today in China: 80.

so in 800 years of chi-medicine, they got 10 years added.

in 100 years of western medicine thay got 17 years added.
in 200 years they got +40.

hmmm...maybe chi-based traditional medicine isn't all it's cracked up to be. ya think?


has anyone every been to a US medical grad. school? I'd say of the foreign alumni, Chinese make up at least a good 60%....then they go back to China to practice medicine. those are the same individuals who keep China's birth/death index comparable to 1st world standards - not the village chi-witch snake-oil doctors pushing ginseng and sticking electrode needles in patients....sorry, 'customers'. or the politically correct term now 'clientel'.

give credit where it's due. Chinese medicine makes people 'feel' better. western medicine makes people better.


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#356746 - 09/01/07 01:12 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
How quickly we tend to forget, traditional medicine gave us many of our modern drugs, and more new ones are being developed.... with... you guessed it... traditional medicines.

Sure, why believe in chi, when a little blue pill can "fix" your problem... :rolleyes:

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#356747 - 09/01/07 02:29 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Eyrie don't you just love the medically trained westerner science people who have been trained eastern medicine who form strong definitive stances?

Anyone heard of Homeostasis? Negative feedback systems? Check it out...western medicine is now looking very holistically at the human condition. Also interesting how western medicine is looking at acupuncture and trying to understand how by stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system acupuncture is actually helping the body achieve homeostasis. Also lets look at the 40million+ people who are currently infected with H.I.V and how many people now believe that this pandemic was caused by the Polio vaccine being cultured in S.I.V infected monkey body parts. How's their life expectancy looking? Also the millions of people who on pain killers, dialysis or other cocktails of invasive treatment to counteract the poisoning and agonizing effect of the treatments they are being given. Ever seen anyone after being blasted with radiation to treat cancer? Oh thats a nice one...and the steroids used produce a lovely quality of life during the rehab period is just dapper. Ever known anyone to compliment the Cancer rehab process using alternative medicine? Amazing difference. Ever heard of the term "complimentary medicine" as defined and recommended by the UK's National Health Service? Can't be anything in it can there? Oh lets not forget the billions that the pharmaceutical companies are spending researching Chinese and other herbal medicines...Chinese herbs may I add are based heavily on the TCM theory. But there's nothing in it is there?

Funny how the intelligent amongst us are seeking out knowledge from all the sources available and the twat;s amongst us get their limited information on "Science" and "Chi" using google and five minutes of research...then proclaim themselves champions against the fallacy of Oriental thinking...at the same time Western governments and drug companies are investing billions into understanding how it works. Also interesting how there is an entire paradigm shift in western thinking now trying to figure out how to live with nature rather than ravage and rape it? Funny how with have the highest life expectancy in history but the lowest fertility rate ever. High life expectancy, highest rate of birth defects, hunger and poverty. Yeah for progress!!!

Could the enlightened route be to pool together all the information and seek greater understanding....or to condemn a philosophy that has stood entire civilizations in good stead for over 2000 years? Of course the west is in the better position to comment we've got medical science that is based on over 200 years of clinical observation vs. over 2000 years. In fact most of the drugs and treatments commonly used today in western medicine have less than 10 years of clinical study. It's a no brainer to realize that both models should be referenced to move forwards.


Gavin, there is no need to get personal with the matter. No more name calling.


Edited by oldman (09/01/07 03:06 PM)

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#356748 - 09/01/07 03:13 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Gav, I think you just about covered it... I just couldn't be bothered to write all that good stuff... when a short, succinct statement would do equally well, since those who know already know, and those who don't, well, they can always practice their Google-Fu.

The other thing to note is that when we say "cure" in western medical terms, we typically mean something other than addressing the underlying causes of dis-ease.

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#356749 - 09/01/07 03:49 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Funny you mention that eyrie about the "cure". Last year I went to a physio to experience it as a treatment (see I try do that, you actually experience something before forming an opinion on it!) and have to say it was quite a good experience. However he just worked on my shoulder, I walked out feeling very uneven in my body. We got chatting afterwards and I asked how many people come with reoccurring problems and he said a large proportion. I'm afraid I can't quote the source but there was recently a western study into TCM's "Four Diagnosis's" to better understand the symptom vs. cause problem. Was really interesting to read. IMHO that is one of the greatest things oriental medicine has to offer western medicine, the diagnostic process based on a holistic knowledge of the body. I think the west is making huge advancements in this field.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356750 - 09/01/07 05:25 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



give credit where it's due. Chinese medicine makes people 'feel' better. western medicine makes people better.






So why not include both kinds of treatment? Seems the chinese might be. Some plants are used as drugs against certain types of illness regardless who prescribes or sells them be it a western trained doctor (I think they tend to keep the pharmacutical manufactures in business) or a local chinese healer.

I find it interesting that some western trained doctors participate in heavy smoking and drinking.

Personaly if the local chinese healer knew the cure to stopping smoking then fine. Maybe then the western trained doctor( who smokes) would use the chinese healers prescribed medication a long time before they go through the chimo therepy(western medicine) hospice, then the wooden box at the end and a bill from the local c.o.o.p(undertaker) to the none desceased.


Jude


Gavin

When you say " a twa*" is that the same thing that twains run on?



Edited by jude33 (09/01/07 05:34 AM)

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#356751 - 09/01/07 08:35 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
C'mon guys... Ed's not a twat, but he's a "perfect storm" as a skeptic. He makes some good arguments and some bad arguments, as do we all...

Having had some recent experience with "western medicine" treating my wife's cancer, I can assure you all that they don't have definitive answers to anything. They only have "billing"... and whatever agreements they've made with the insurance companies about how long to prolong your dying process before letting you kick off.

They spent a quarter of a million dollars on her first round of chemotherapy, and they had a "medicine for everything"... at some cost. They had a chemical that would kill off the white blood cells, and one that would cause them to regenerate "naturally". They had one that would treat her compromised immune system, which they destroyed doing the chemo. Hell, they probably had one to change her hair color when it came back from falling out because of the radiation and chemo. They just didn't have a "cure" for anything.

What did they recommend? "Alternate therapies"... such as acupuncture... reiki... therapeutic massage... anything for a dollar... as long as they had somebody in their "network" as a provider.

Hell, even the Hospice was willing to try putting her on "alternate therapies"... like trying to start her on an exercise program knowing she had only weeks to live...

The difference between being in the "doctor's shoes" and a "cowboy's shoes" is that the cowboy knows that the bull$hit's on the outside of them...

Western medicine can't cure anything that isn't a surgical process, such as appendecitis or coronary artery disease that doesn't heal naturally. They simply control the length of time it takes you to die from it... period. It can be years... it can be months... it can be weeks. When they really "screw the pooch", it can be days.

Maybe TCM can't cure everything, but I've seen some amazing results over the years from simple techniques such as chiropractic, acupuncture, and massage... which accents the body's natural systems to take care of itself... and I've seen some good medicines from western medicine, such as penicillin and "other antibiotics" to treat specific diseases... but nothing that can actually treat a pathologic disease to a cure. Either the body can cure it or it can't...

What western medicine seems satisfied to do is to sacrifice one organ for another... such as giving you medicines that will ruin your liver to treat your cholesterol problem. Our system of "payment" is to be willing to sacrifice those things to keep doctors on pedestals and continue the myth of the miracle cures.

My daughter is a medical professional, and can tell you first hand about every medicine that's in use today... and also about "how long" the life expectancy from using it is. Being in the military, she's fully aware of the power of "other things" to help soldiers get through their injuries and diseases besides the next new medicine. Maybe TCM only gives you a little faith in yourself and in your body to cure your illnesses... and that might be all it takes.

I don't really think anybody has the answers...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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