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#356752 - 09/01/07 09:16 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Unfortunately it isn't in the financial interests of the drugs companies to actually cure anything. Much better to product drugs to alleviate symptoms. That way the patient has to keep buying more and more of them to keep the symptoms at bay. Curing something means you no longer have a customer to buy your product. Even better if those drugs produce side effects that can be alleviated by selling different drugs.

In western medicine drugs companies and doctors only earn money when we're ill so it's not in their interests to make you better. I have heard however, that in China it was the practice for a family to pay a doctor a monthly stipend to keep them well. If they became ill they would stop paying the doctor until he made them well again. This way the doctor becomes an expert on preventative medicine and actually curing things.
Hmmm. I wonder if there's any way we can persuade our medical establishment to take this route.

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#356753 - 09/01/07 09:26 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The human being is a mind, body, and spirit.




With all due respect, Bushi, that is not a fact. I'll grant you mind and body - but spirit? What is that?

Quote:

So something as simple as praying every day can have a huge effect in some cases. This is something that has been mentioned in a few periodicals, with doctors endorsing the concept.




Again, not arguing that the act of praying can have a placebo-type effect on the patient, but this is not proving that the prayer did anything at all.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#356754 - 09/01/07 02:19 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
western medicine doesn't cure? look at your upper arm...see that circular scar? was that scar from vaccination shots or from accupuncture? a few shots when you are almost too young to remember, and you're protected against some pretty nasty diseases for LIFE. Thats as 'hollistic' as you can get. If you place your standards of the word 'cure' to mean 'curing death', then you have high standards indeed. I'm not that picky - talk all the politics and corruption in the world of medicine and big business you want (which, I would agree with you), but living to 80 as oppossed to 40 is a pretty good deal western medicine has given the world, during it's first 200 years of practice vs. TCM's 2000 years.

would you rather feel 'good and natural' and die at 40, or be taking pills at 80? I certainly don't like pills, surgery or side-effect treatments....but I wouldn't like dying at 40 either, no matter how aligned my chi was.

as far as I know, TCM can't make any medical claim other than easing pain/discomfort and giving peace of mind. Thats the function of TCM - giving peace of mind to those seeking it.
nothing wrong with that. nothing wrong with praying either.


Q: "what can you actually do with chi?"

A: Hope.

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#356755 - 09/01/07 05:15 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I'm not so sure that preventing a disease is the same thing as curing it. I don't have salmonella poisoning because I keep things clean around the kitchen, but if I got it, I don't think a kitchen scrub would do me much good... same with vaccines. They might keep a germ from getting started, but do nothing to kill it once its got a foothold.

As for the living to 80 deal, you're attributing only the medical advances to that change. There are social and lifestyle changes that add a lot to that number, and while the culprits might have been discovered from analyzing diseases and conditions, changing a lifestyle can cause changes in longevity as well. There are also changes in the kind of work and activities you take part in that can affect it.

I just find it interesting that doctors now send their terminal patients to "alternative" medical practices... think maybe their guilt factor for bull$1tting the public about what they can actually cure has something to do with it? I certainly do... and I have pretty recent experience in that.

I did a lot of research when my wife was battling cancer, and what I discovered was that the "advertised" advances in most cases was something they could do in a lab with a rat, but nothing that they could actually do clinically. The cancer treatment folks advertise being able to track down individual cancer cells in such procedures as "sentinal node biopsys"... but having that information doesn't translate into anything clinical to help a cancer patient.

It's like knowing the airliner identification number of the plane that hit the twin towers... it's interesting information, but it doesn't help the folks affected by it one bit. Cancer treatment is BIG business, and it's not really cancer treatment... it's "delaying death" treatment.

We all live and we all die... and how much we spend on the way to the grave is a matter of how badly we want to live that one extra day, and what we're willing to sacrifice in order to do it.

Only the rocks live forever...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356756 - 09/01/07 05:49 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Seems like you're having an interesting discussion. While I fall firmly on Ed's side of this argument, I thought this recent British TV program might be a nice discussion point. It is by Richard Dawkins, a (I think I'm justified in saying this) fundamentalist atheist Oxford professor, who has made a number of television shows arguing against faith and religion as "irrational." Although it cannot be called balanced, it is very interesting all the same:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4720837385783230047

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#356757 - 09/01/07 05:52 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree with you on most of those points. however, lifestyles didn't just spontaneously change for the better. My point is, was it a spread of awareness of chi flow or was the discovery of germs, bacteria and viruses the driving forces behind the awareness of social cleanliness and other changes you mention?


Quote:

...but having that information doesn't translate into anything clinical to help a cancer patient.


technically, nor does having information about Chinese medicine. The question when faced (or faced with a loved one) with a terminal illness is, how can suffering be eased. Western medicine doesn't deal much with the psychological aspect - they only refer or peripheral accomidate during the psychological stages people go thru. some seek out group discussion therepy, some turn to their religious programs, some smoke weed, some pursue various TCM practices, some commit suicide.

all lead to the same place: dying. it comes down to preference of how you wish your suffering to be eased.

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#356758 - 09/02/07 08:37 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Okay... let's get back to technique rather than healing qualities for a moment.

I was teaching some "grip" techniques, and one of the students (69 year old woman with small hands) was having difficulty having her hands fit around the wrist of her uke. She was "almost there", but simply could not make the technique work for her.

I walked over and simply cupped my hand over her technique (not touching it) and her uke's knees blew forward and he went to the ground. All I had done was to move my hand beyond her fingertips into what would have been "proper position" for her, and extended my energy. The uke said that when I did, it felt like somebody dropped a car on his wrist. How do you explain that?

The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography, so "blending ki" (which is the basis of Aikido) could involve any number of people, correct? Then why would me lending her my "hand position" create that dynamic? The only answer is "ki"... because there wasn't anything else in play there.



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356759 - 09/02/07 09:55 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:


I walked over and simply cupped my hand over her technique (not touching it) and her uke's knees blew forward and he went to the ground. All I had done was to move my hand beyond her fingertips into what would have been "proper position" for her, and extended my energy. The uke said that when I did, it felt like somebody dropped a car on his wrist. How do you explain that?



I can't. I also can't always explain why people fall down and convulse when they have hands 'layed on' them by a faith healer.
Psychology would explain your event as the student unconsciously showing immense respect to you - that it should work since it's you, means they subconsciouly make it work. They do what it expected of them, gaining your approval/attention/love of their faith in you. I think the term is 'subjective validation'.


Quote:


The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography,



you are kidding right? kirilian photography with respect to it showing energy fields has been quite debunked (actually, thats a good one for the show 'mythbusters' since people still sell and buy this phenomenon). Here's how it's debunked: put an object in a vacuum and the 'aura' goes away. The effect is caused by moisture, pressure and air. take away the moisture and air, and you get no aura. Also, inanimate and inorganic man-made objects, like a plastic leaf from a fake plant also produce a spectactular 'life force' with this photography. does a synthetic leaf have ki energy or chi circulation?


Quote:

so "blending ki" (which is the basis of Aikido) could involve any number of people, correct? Then why would me lending her my "hand position" create that dynamic? The only answer is "ki"... because there wasn't anything else in play there.




in the realm of scientific observation, that would be called a 'jump to conclusion' and/or 'magical thinking'. There was something else in play...the student who was actually in contact with her.

what needs to be tested, is you being able to do that same thing to a stranger and non-believer of ki. I'll point you in the direction to do that test, and if sucessful, you will be awarded a significant amount of money:
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

making anything move without touching it under test conditions would be a revolution in these types of test. why? because nobody has done it. you'd be quite famous and rich.

let us know how that turns out for you...or send me a postcard while you travel the World enjoying your money!

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#356760 - 09/02/07 09:58 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't believe this chi garbage for a second. I think that explains why none of this chi "stuff" works on me or practically anyone else who has little "faith".




-John


Edited by JKogas (09/02/07 10:09 AM)

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#356761 - 09/02/07 10:48 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: JKogas]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
You are of course absolutely right not to believe in something that you haven't seen or experienced first hand.
That is why these kind of discussions are meaningless. There are those who have experienced such phenonena that defy what we would call rational explanation and so believe there is something else which is then labelled chi for want of a more precise term and those who have had no direct experience and so have only read or heard about it but naturally search for other explanations to expain away the phenomena that they have heard or read about.
The chi-worshippers versus the chi-bashers looks all set to become the next religious divide.

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