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#356712 - 08/17/07 08:39 AM what can you actually do with chi?
beltlevel Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 3
Ok, This isn't about ki balls or anything. I've started to medtiate about 2 months ago, since I want to better myself. I did Teakwondo for a while, but it lacked meditation and softer things that I wanted to do.
I wanted to know more about what chi was actually about since the one inch punch looked interested and I doubt its authenticity- including brick bashing and things. So i just wanted to know: What can you do with it once you've developed chi?

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#356713 - 08/17/07 09:28 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
hey man if you want info on internal arts go to www.blacktaoist.com ... this guy really knows his craft in many chinese arts n then some. very well respected in the nyc area "tristate" area. he can also demostrate what and how to develope chi...i've witness it myself..it aint no superpower thing its just how well you use ur strengh along with body mechanics that many instructor just dont teach nowadays even thought they think they are...again...the site is www.blacktaoist.com ask him whatever u want and he'll have an answer

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#356714 - 08/17/07 09:49 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

What can you do with it once you've developed chi?



Live with it.
Seriously, what do you anticipate being able to 'do' with chi?
You doubt the authenticity of the 1" punch because why? Do you think that it has something to do with chi? Do you think that it takes chi to "bash bricks"?

The only way to really even try and understand what chi is to find a teacher in Bagua, Tai Chi or Xing Yi or some other form of practice wherein the is a emphasis on inter mind/body integration.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#356715 - 08/17/07 10:17 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Fisherman]
beltlevel Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 3
Quote:

Quote:

What can you do with it once you've developed chi?



Live with it.
Seriously, what do you anticipate being able to 'do' with chi?
You doubt the authenticity of the 1" punch because why? Do you think that it has something to do with chi? Do you think that it takes chi to "bash bricks"?

The only way to really even try and understand what chi is to find a teacher in Bagua, Tai Chi or Xing Yi or some other form of practice wherein the is a emphasis on inter mind/body integration.




I apologize sincerely for my ignorance- something which I'm trying to solve, and yes, I might find an instructor., The problem is there aren't many instructors in my area- in Durham, England. I'm dedicated to the MA, and I'm very passionate about it despite learning teakwondo for only about 1 year and a half.
But seriously- thx both of you for your advice- I'll seirously consider getting a teacher (somehow)or maybe in the end I'll take the path of learning to control and harness chi myself. For all I know, the bricks bashed could be brute strength, really chi, or maybe the bricks were weak. so,
In any case, I want to be able to live a healthy lifestyle, and be able to better myself through training. I just wanted to know what it could do.
Thx to the first guy who replied, i'll look into it.


Edited by beltlevel (08/17/07 10:22 AM)

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#356716 - 08/17/07 09:13 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Chi is simply the improved use of human biomechanics. Essentially the idea is to be able to angle your joints and use the muscles in a way that enables the most efficient movement. The beauty is that when you move efficiently, you are always in a position to use your full strangth and momentum, making possible feats that seem to the lay person - superhuman. I don't believe it is some kind of mystical force that runs through everything, but I understand this way of thinking.
After many hours of training you're movements will feel effortless, almost like your hands move themselves, on some inflating and deflating ball. It is also a meditation in itself, as you must constantly focus on what you're doing (well I still have to anyway). It improves balance, co-ordination, posture and timing. It gives you the exercise you need if you do it regularly enough, and plays an excellent role in the nurturing of a healthy lifestyle.
You should find an instructor though. They are actually quite numerous, I found several on the first page just doing a google search.
As for the brick breaking and one inch punch, they're real. You just don't understand it enough yet to see how the power is being applied. Any half decent MAist can do them.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#356717 - 08/18/07 12:13 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
phd Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 5
I'd agree that the vast majority of what is called chi is biomechanics in my experience (which is limited). However, that other 1% or so that I've seen I have no explanation for and don't expect to ever be able to do myself. Interestingly, the strangest things I've seen described as chi manipulation were healing acts, not harming ones.

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#356718 - 08/19/07 05:42 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: phd]
beltlevel Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 3
Thx alot guys, for clearing things up a little. Out of curiosity how long does it take to train yourself to be able to start using chi in martial arts? I read from this site somewhere you need to meditate everyday for a hundred days- and your chi is 'developed'. How can you measure how 'developed' your chi is?

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#356719 - 08/19/07 07:55 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
To get an idea of what chi feels like hold your hands about 6 inches apart in front of you , palms facing each other. Relax your elbows and shoulders downwards and focus on the space between your hands. Imagine you are holding a ball of energy. You should feel a warm or tingling feeling in your hands. That is your chi. Move your hands slowly in and out to feel the limits of your 'chi ball'. The more you can relax and focus the more you will feel.
Good biomechanics means you can use the body more efficiently and so the chi flows through you with less obstruction.
You really need to try and find a good teacher near you to benefit properly.

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#356720 - 08/19/07 01:16 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: puffadder]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
...or, when you do that, another way to think about it is normally imperceptable heat convection, blood circulation and muscle micro-contractions. usually we aren't aware of these subtle and barely detectable physics going on until we calm and quiet ourselves to observe it.

another is sitting in a very quiet area, and hearing the very faint high pitched 'white noise'. some could describe it as chi, some would explain it as the sound your inner ear is picking up of the subtle vibration from blood circulating the area.

often, people WANT to believe and attribute such things as chi ...so they inquire no further.

I certainly don't know for sure, but I try to think of other possibilities beyond what I'd LIKE to believe. It would be cool as hell if we all had telepathy, clairavoiance, ancient but forgotten powers, and if extraterrestrial UFO's were real.

because it's cool, doesn't make it so...but it does make for good fiction writing.

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#356721 - 08/19/07 04:37 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: puffadder]
ShangTsung Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 104
Loc: Bomb factory
No thats the blood flowing from your hands as your not using them and the muscles starting to stiffen this is what causes the feeling of magnatism when you pull them apart. You are exploiting simple science in an attempt to create evidence for a "force" which has none.

I just realised the guy above me explained it alot better then i could be bothered to so disregard what i said above ill just say i agree with him


Edited by ShangTsung (08/19/07 04:40 PM)

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#356722 - 08/19/07 05:12 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: ShangTsung]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Nice to hear from the flat earth brigade again!!

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#356723 - 08/19/07 08:12 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: puffadder]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
The method of "feeling your chi" that you described in your previous reply is the most commonly used one. It's also one that has been picked apart by numerous communities, including this one: http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15746610

Quote:

Ok, This isn't about ki balls or anything. I've started to medtiate about 2 months ago, since I want to better myself. I did Teakwondo for a while, but it lacked meditation and softer things that I wanted to do.
I wanted to know more about what chi was actually about since the one inch punch looked interested and I doubt its authenticity- including brick bashing and things. So i just wanted to know: What can you do with it once you've developed chi?



The one-inch punch was nothing more than a demonstration by Bruce Lee. The distance for which the one-inch punch travels is very short (one inch). Punches that travel that short usually don't have that much power due to the difficulty in putting your body into it. Bruce Lee demonstrated how he was able to place his whole body behind that punch. It had nothing to do with chi.

Anyway, what can you do with chi once you've developed it? Absolutely nothing. Chi is formless and confined within your body. Trying to use it as a weapon is like trying to use a cloud as a sword. In my opinion, you cannot develop your chi, you can only give it freedom of movement throughout your body by removing anything that would block it. This includes thoughts, desires, intentions, etcetera. It's no different than your mind.

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#356724 - 08/20/07 03:02 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Your approaching it in completely the wrong direction and using terminology that both yourself and very few others understand. Simply learn how to deal with energy, receiving it and generating it. All martial arts do that. As Fisherman says, if you want to learn a MA builds a body/mind connection then look at arts he suggested. If you'd like to know what someone who doesn't have chi or energy is like goto a morgue. There you can see people devoid of energy, or Chi. This will produce the realization of "Wow, I already have {insert energetic terminology of your choice} now what shall I do with it?"

Too many people try intellectually understand an experience without ever having it. It's like putting the cart before the horse. Find a MA instructor who is skillful, become skilfull yourself and then attribute it to whichever school of thought you find easiest to understand. Some find scientific methods easier, others more metaphysical observations. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, skill is skill....build your skill and you Chi will take care of itself.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356725 - 08/20/07 12:45 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Quote:

...or, when you do that, another way to think about it is normally imperceptable heat convection, blood circulation and muscle micro-contractions. usually we aren't aware of these subtle and barely detectable physics going on until we calm and quiet ourselves to observe it.




Good point. I wonder if learning to control those muscle micro-contractions might be a part of what "chi" is all about.

Quote:

another is sitting in a very quiet area, and hearing the very faint high pitched 'white noise'. some could describe it as chi, some would explain it as the sound your inner ear is picking up of the subtle vibration from blood circulating the area.




Nah, I call that tinnitus


Personally, I believe in everything I don't understand I actually think there is _something_ to chi. Is it perfection of body mechanics? Maybe. Is it something else? Maybe. I've even heard it explained as proper use of your center of gravity in delivery of technique (that goes back to body mechanics). I'm fairly certain that it is not the moving of a bowl of water across a table (that's a magicians trick) or the rotating of a piece of foil in a "sealed" container. Which happens to be a published magicians trick.

My most interesting study of chi was with a reiki master. I never had much luck myself, but she did some pretty interesting things that I have yet to explain.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#356726 - 08/26/07 10:24 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jpoor]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
thats the nature of subjective and open-ended concepts - they are open to interpretation. pick your favorite one and run with it.

my sense is that if a concept interwoven with training doesn't help improve anything, then the concept runs the risk of becoming baggage thru pursuing the concept vs. pursuing the training. Same with chi-centric healing: if the chi concept methodology doesn't have better performance than non-chi methods, then why add the layer of abstraction to the 'cure'?
I can see why people would want to SELL that layer, but sometimes have a hard time understanding why people would buy it. although, 'makes them feel better' is a good enough reason to keep it around.

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#356727 - 08/29/07 12:09 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Hmmm, Ed. You stuck your head in the radio again and didn't see any radio waves, so they must not exist, right?

Seriously, using chi (or ki) is a skill, just like anything else that's dependent on internal training methods and body mechanics. There are techniques that I do where the attacker is helpless to turn loose of me once they touch me, and it's not only a function of ki, but of body mechanics and the energy pattern of the technique. "Intrinsic energy" is pretty much useless until you make a connection with someone else, and then it can be both dynamic and mysterious in its effects.

We went through a multi-page discussion some time ago about this, and it was pretty clear that no matter how much you explain that if you don't believe in it, there's no proof, and if you do believe in it, there's every proof by the effects.

Explaining it through technique is something that you feel, and can be shown in the practice... but it's like the radio waves, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Just like mechanical attachments, you can produce different results by simply changing something as simple as pointing your finger or changing your hand shape when extending ki, so it would take volumes to put that into words and I'm not sure somebody skeptical would ever understand it until they felt it... and that's not a put down, but a phenomenan that is demonstratable but can't be adequately explained in words to ever convey its use.

I've been doing Aikido for 20+ years, and while I can show you, I still don't have an explanation of a lot of the phenomena of Aikido. Some of it is "muscle balance", some of it is "mechanical structure", some is "body position", some is "hand position"... elements that you would describe as "techniques", but not really technique in the classical sense. They are repeatable patterns of energy with predictable results, and the results go up exponentially with the addition of energy.

As for the healing side of chi, the entire TCM system is based on it, along with the science of acupuncture, and with the exception of herbal remedies, the treatments in TCM are mostly "chi" stimulations or remedies. Do they work?... apparently so, because Acupuncture clinics are popping up all over the place these days, and they are being used to treat everything from dyspepsia to cancer pain... so there must be something to the science as well.

I truly wish I could give you a definitive answer on the board, but I think that if you ever experience the dynamics of chi or ki, you'll understand better that it's kind of like butter... is doesn't do much for you unless it's applied to something.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356728 - 08/29/07 03:24 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
A quote from Steve Rowe (Bossman) from the Shi Kon forum:

Quote:

Maybe that's why it's called an 'internal' art, not that the power is 'internal' or 'external' but the tuition is from the inside outwards...


_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356729 - 08/29/07 11:18 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
a simple test that people always ignore addressing:

Name something physical that can be done by someone thinking and acting in terms of Chi which a non-Chi centric person can't do.

that IS the topic of the thread right?

can someone strike/throw/evade better if they think/learn in terms of Chi/Ki? nope.



can someone cure a medical condition better than non-Chi practice? nope.

etc...so it comes down to a conceptual preference of training method as oppossed to actually DOING something that other concepts within a training method cannot.

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#356730 - 08/29/07 11:36 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
At the risk of infuriating Chi/Ki folk, is it possible that there is something akin to the placebo effect going on? If people believe in the process enough, there can be "real" effects to the practitioners.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#356731 - 08/29/07 11:41 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: MattJ]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Quote:

At the risk of infuriating Chi/Ki folk, is it possible that there is something akin to the placebo effect going on? If people believe in the process enough, there can be "real" effects to the practitioners.




I think that's part of it. I also think there is more to it than that. There is _something_ there, we just haven't all figured it out yet. My personal ideas on Ki/Chi are that it is a higher level of technique stemming from more perfect use of our mechanical bodies.

I've seen some interesting things done in a Reiki session that I can't explain.

I haven't seen any martial applications of an "external" form of ki/chi that can't be explained by trickery. That doesn't mean it isn't possible though.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#356732 - 08/29/07 01:47 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
although thats true Matt, you can also get the same placebo effects using non-chi mindsets. In healing for instance, the American Indians had their faith in various spirits to protect them (giving no credit to the opiates and hallucinegens they ate and smoked of course). Does belief in those spirits 'cure' them to better effect than Chi-based healing? probably about the same. which is the placebo itself. therefore, Chi-theory is exchangeable with other belief/concept methods to get the same effect. "Mommy kisses the wound, and it feels better." or the adult version: "I paid $1000 for 3 months of a reputable chi-circulation therepy, so I feel better."

as far as the physical side:
what is it we tell someone who is breaking a board for the first time? is it "use your chi" ? or is it "aim past the board" ? The psychological factor is very real, I'm not denying that. If someone trained in terms of Chi, then the advice 'use your chi to break the board' will help them as much as a non-Chi artist hearing 'aim beyond the board'.

question is, things being equal, will either necessarily be able to hit harder than the other? If not, then what can one claim over the other as far as concepts used in training method?

The other thing is, if Chi as a training concept REALLY gave any kind of edge in physical training, then we'd hear alot more boxers, gold medal olympicsts, navy seals, weightlifters, etc, praising it's concept while demonstrating it's effect.

...then the argument becomes: well, they ARE utilizing their Chi, but they just don't know it. ok. then that begs the question: maybe 'it' only gives the edge when we don't think in it's terms, in which case I'm doing things right by not using chi concepts ...but it becomes trying to disprove a negative - can't be done, so Chi survives that line of questioning.
actually, thats how all non-things survive: not being able to disprove them. prove that there wasn't an extra-terrestrial recovered in the desert during the 1950's: you can't so people still visit area 51 wearing tin-foil hats looking for answers.

skilled magicians are amazing to watch - doesn't mean magic is real.

we are all suceptable to psychological deception. maybe I'm equally and oppositly deceived about Chi...but I'm just an "Occam's Razor" kind of guy.

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#356733 - 08/30/07 06:44 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Isn't it possible that "chi" is just a poetic expression that describes something natural, such as plain physics for example?

It seems to me that sometimes a LACK of "scientific" understanding finds as scrambling for terms to fill that gap in our knowledge, leaving us with things like "chi" to explain something?

Of course I'm not arrogant enough to think that our scientific knowledge couldn't perhaps "get in the way" of the poetic either. Perhaps there are things we don't understand or, perhaps aren't able to measure.

However, I'm not seeing anyone doing a thing with chi (like throwing people across a room) that isn't done with just an intuitive understanding of plain old physics.


-John

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#356734 - 08/30/07 07:18 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: JKogas]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
At last someone is getting it! John I could quite possibly kiss you!

It is simply a couple of thousand years worth of collective clinical observation of natural phenomena. Observing natural constant patterns of influence that produce predictable consistent results. As I have said til I'm blue in the face that it is just a model of observation that does produce consistent results when used by people who understand the model of observation for what it is. Only the idiots who don't understand the model either demand proof of its existence or try and microwave food with their hands. It's all natural. Just the result of sitting back and actually looking at how the world around us works, but using analogy to ease understanding rather than equation. Filling in the gaps is a brilliant way of describing. With Shiatsu I've helped people who have come to me from Physio's, Osteopaths and Chiropractors....filling in the gaps allows me to treat far deeper and more holistically than many purely "science" based therapists (and any idiots planning on describing what Shiatsu is and isn't please don't!).

Bridging the gap John...nicely said!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356735 - 08/30/07 07:54 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
true. and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with poetic concepts to describe nature. and I'm not trying to lose business for the Chi-folk making a living. I choose to see the poetry in science and physics. my point is, who is winning the gold medals? The chi-based trained or the physics-based? which is curing ailments and advancing beyond the limits of what we thought was possible? western-style medicine or TCM? Do chi-believers (or believers of any poetic concepts for that matter) live longer or higher-quality lives?

Thruout history, things/methods become obsolete as new understanding and practices emerge. This is why when you look at the progression of Chinese medicine, it always has to reinvent itself to keep up somewhat with western sensibility based on scientific discovery. After it reinvents itself into a concept that fits better, it still is the first to claim it's 'ancient knowledge'.

example of 'modernized ancient':
acupuncture and connecting the needles to a low voltage battery.

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#356736 - 08/30/07 03:42 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

I believe I understand completely what Ed is saying. I ask by way of response, if we merely called aspects, elements of a particular technique by merely another name would that suffice to derail the discomfort with the fundamental concept? If instead of Chi for which I have no cultural context nor parody for understanding it... if I merely called it framework micro-mechanics instead... is that sufficent?

Now let me try probing some of the ~intangible~ aspects of technique...

Mental focus...what happens to a physical technique if instead of the target, I am mentally concentrated on reliving a great joke, or a funny scene from a movie I saw last night while demonstrating my best particular technique? Now remove that image, and concentrate solely on the dead weight of the movement only, its correct mechanics (ie being in ones own skin), and focused only on that alone? Is your/my power the same or different by altering something so simple?

What happens if you think of a very precise spot behind yourself when throwing your strongest punch?! Will that possess the same or a different degree of power if then INSTEAD you focus, imagine, punching through my body say I doon't know maybe twelve inches out my back say?

What does one call that ? Is that "chi" or one aspect of it perhaps...

Jeff

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#356737 - 08/30/07 03:59 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ed:

Ugggh, I should try and read ALL the posts before I reply, I apologies for echoing your views...

Perhaps the answer is whether someone understands the concept for whatever level they are at? If I have a decent framework I know what we are trying to achieve and how that is done. If I can get it via the CHI explaination, woderful, great. If that doesn't work, I need to ask you further, until I can/do achieve a basic framework of understanding. Understand and I can practice XYZ on my own small why's, hows, and whats...

I do not like the term CHi myself... it makes me leery. But if used I hope someone will indulge me until I can understand what the idea they are trying to use/teach means.

Does nobody any good if the limit of my explaination is a dead end & cyclically used vague term. I have been yin-yanged to death in many conversations with earnest practitioners but they were incapable/unable to use alternate words to explain their ideas. They were using empty platitudes...

Most unfortunate...
Jeff

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#356738 - 08/31/07 04:19 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
taekwonjohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 10
Glad to hear you trained taekwon do . Did you find it joining with tai chi, or rather conrtadictory?
I think tai chi has bigger developing values, as you master your body and the mind, and the cooperation of them , so that they move together - like the wheels of a car.
Slow movements remain longer in the memory, they show you, that good travel is more imoportant than reaching a destination.
When you master some elements of internal arts, you will find you can apply them to life, to work, to your hobbies.
It's not easy, but it's worth it.
Keep on rolling :-)

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#356739 - 08/31/07 07:11 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I do not like the term CHi myself... it makes me leery. But if used I hope someone will indulge me until I can understand what the idea they are trying to use/teach means.



Hmmm, leery and yin-yang in the same post? Well, how bout this then Jeff? Chi is like what those little blue pills do to you - only better.

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#356740 - 08/31/07 09:12 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
LMAO... That's classic, Eyrie...

If I can stop giggling and get back to the discussion, I would pose a question to those that attribute everything to physics and mechanics and science. One of my jujutsu teachers went to Japan on a trip, and as he was leaving, one of the masters at the school came up to shake hands with him. As he did, he put his other hand over his wrist and got a concerned look on his face. "You have bad kidney..." is what he said to him, and told him to go to a doctor when he got home.

Sensei followed his instructions, and when he was tested, he had a low grade kidney infection and several kidney stones forming... none of which had caused him the slightest problem, but the old jujutsu master could sense it from his meridians.

Now, that could be attributed to a number of things, but it falls on my list of things that make me go "Hmmmmm...." and wonder how he did it. Now, I know for a fact that it happened, but I don't have an explanation... What's the "scientific explanation" of this one? I attribute it to the old Sensei being able to sense a disturbance in his ki flow in his meridians, but I'd have to hear the scientific explanation to "understand it".

Just curious...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356741 - 08/31/07 09:38 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I've heard many stories like that. You know how when you touch someone you can instantly determine where they're holding tension, or where they are putting their weight? But, to be able to discern something like this... with pinpoint accuracy... WOW... that's something.

Like, an old jujitsu sensei once said to me, we have no need for weathermen - if you want to know whether it's going to rain or not, just ask an old man with arthritis...

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#356742 - 08/31/07 11:42 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Hey... I resemble that remark... (old man with arthritis)

Maybe I can find a job as a barometer...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356743 - 09/01/07 12:02 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
at least science and physics doesn't have to rely on isolated cases of miracles. sure there are unexplained 'miracles'...I like to call them 'anomolies'. but miracles aren't what hold up a building, cure diseases, and prolong life expectancy.

all you have to do is look at a timeline of worldwide life expectancy chart...it goes from low 40's in 1800 and takes a drastic turn (in countries that embraced western medicine) to high 50's in 1900, to 80 years old today. That, my friend matches the curve of scientific acheivment...it is NOT an indicator of more people using chi-based methodology.

if self-preservation is the long-term name of the game - then science wins. it's indisputable.

isn't that worth anything? I mean, if it wasn't for scientific method starting in the 19th century, we'd be 'harnessing our chi' till we die at 40...and never know the possibility of living to twice that age.

people are spoiled (or ignorant), don't appreciate the advances science and western medicine has given the world in the past 200 years, and don't give credit where it's due. On a macro scale, what has chi-centric medicine given us as a society? nothing except maybe a good massage. which is why people have to resort to tales of isolated miracles via hearsay to give the impression of 'proof' of it's worth.


Absolutely true story, I swear on my father's memory: I touched my brother-in-law and I knew he had liver disease. Wanna know how? his skin was discolored a yellow tinge and he was an incurable alcoholic. he died at 35 years old. must be a miracle I 'sensed' his ailment.

p.s. After watching live on TV the 1980 Hockey olympics of the US team, I certainly DO believe in miracles! I just don't bank on them. I WANT them to always be true...but reality reports to me differently.

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#356744 - 09/01/07 12:09 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Actually, some of the healthiest people I know balance their practice of Eastern and Western medicine. The human being is a mind, body, and spirit. So something as simple as praying every day can have a huge effect in some cases. This is something that has been mentioned in a few periodicals, with doctors endorsing the concept. Treat the person, as a whole person, not just the ailment.

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#356745 - 09/01/07 12:19 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
"some of the healthiest people I know"

hardly a long-term or wide-reaching figure.

average age of death in China 1000AD: 30
average age of death before western medicine in 1800 China: 40.
average age of death in 1900 China: 57.
average age of death today in China: 80.

so in 800 years of chi-medicine, they got 10 years added.

in 100 years of western medicine thay got 17 years added.
in 200 years they got +40.

hmmm...maybe chi-based traditional medicine isn't all it's cracked up to be. ya think?


has anyone every been to a US medical grad. school? I'd say of the foreign alumni, Chinese make up at least a good 60%....then they go back to China to practice medicine. those are the same individuals who keep China's birth/death index comparable to 1st world standards - not the village chi-witch snake-oil doctors pushing ginseng and sticking electrode needles in patients....sorry, 'customers'. or the politically correct term now 'clientel'.

give credit where it's due. Chinese medicine makes people 'feel' better. western medicine makes people better.


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#356746 - 09/01/07 01:12 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
How quickly we tend to forget, traditional medicine gave us many of our modern drugs, and more new ones are being developed.... with... you guessed it... traditional medicines.

Sure, why believe in chi, when a little blue pill can "fix" your problem... :rolleyes:

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#356747 - 09/01/07 02:29 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Eyrie don't you just love the medically trained westerner science people who have been trained eastern medicine who form strong definitive stances?

Anyone heard of Homeostasis? Negative feedback systems? Check it out...western medicine is now looking very holistically at the human condition. Also interesting how western medicine is looking at acupuncture and trying to understand how by stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system acupuncture is actually helping the body achieve homeostasis. Also lets look at the 40million+ people who are currently infected with H.I.V and how many people now believe that this pandemic was caused by the Polio vaccine being cultured in S.I.V infected monkey body parts. How's their life expectancy looking? Also the millions of people who on pain killers, dialysis or other cocktails of invasive treatment to counteract the poisoning and agonizing effect of the treatments they are being given. Ever seen anyone after being blasted with radiation to treat cancer? Oh thats a nice one...and the steroids used produce a lovely quality of life during the rehab period is just dapper. Ever known anyone to compliment the Cancer rehab process using alternative medicine? Amazing difference. Ever heard of the term "complimentary medicine" as defined and recommended by the UK's National Health Service? Can't be anything in it can there? Oh lets not forget the billions that the pharmaceutical companies are spending researching Chinese and other herbal medicines...Chinese herbs may I add are based heavily on the TCM theory. But there's nothing in it is there?

Funny how the intelligent amongst us are seeking out knowledge from all the sources available and the twat;s amongst us get their limited information on "Science" and "Chi" using google and five minutes of research...then proclaim themselves champions against the fallacy of Oriental thinking...at the same time Western governments and drug companies are investing billions into understanding how it works. Also interesting how there is an entire paradigm shift in western thinking now trying to figure out how to live with nature rather than ravage and rape it? Funny how with have the highest life expectancy in history but the lowest fertility rate ever. High life expectancy, highest rate of birth defects, hunger and poverty. Yeah for progress!!!

Could the enlightened route be to pool together all the information and seek greater understanding....or to condemn a philosophy that has stood entire civilizations in good stead for over 2000 years? Of course the west is in the better position to comment we've got medical science that is based on over 200 years of clinical observation vs. over 2000 years. In fact most of the drugs and treatments commonly used today in western medicine have less than 10 years of clinical study. It's a no brainer to realize that both models should be referenced to move forwards.


Gavin, there is no need to get personal with the matter. No more name calling.


Edited by oldman (09/01/07 03:06 PM)

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#356748 - 09/01/07 03:13 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Gav, I think you just about covered it... I just couldn't be bothered to write all that good stuff... when a short, succinct statement would do equally well, since those who know already know, and those who don't, well, they can always practice their Google-Fu.

The other thing to note is that when we say "cure" in western medical terms, we typically mean something other than addressing the underlying causes of dis-ease.

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#356749 - 09/01/07 03:49 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Funny you mention that eyrie about the "cure". Last year I went to a physio to experience it as a treatment (see I try do that, you actually experience something before forming an opinion on it!) and have to say it was quite a good experience. However he just worked on my shoulder, I walked out feeling very uneven in my body. We got chatting afterwards and I asked how many people come with reoccurring problems and he said a large proportion. I'm afraid I can't quote the source but there was recently a western study into TCM's "Four Diagnosis's" to better understand the symptom vs. cause problem. Was really interesting to read. IMHO that is one of the greatest things oriental medicine has to offer western medicine, the diagnostic process based on a holistic knowledge of the body. I think the west is making huge advancements in this field.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356750 - 09/01/07 05:25 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



give credit where it's due. Chinese medicine makes people 'feel' better. western medicine makes people better.






So why not include both kinds of treatment? Seems the chinese might be. Some plants are used as drugs against certain types of illness regardless who prescribes or sells them be it a western trained doctor (I think they tend to keep the pharmacutical manufactures in business) or a local chinese healer.

I find it interesting that some western trained doctors participate in heavy smoking and drinking.

Personaly if the local chinese healer knew the cure to stopping smoking then fine. Maybe then the western trained doctor( who smokes) would use the chinese healers prescribed medication a long time before they go through the chimo therepy(western medicine) hospice, then the wooden box at the end and a bill from the local c.o.o.p(undertaker) to the none desceased.


Jude


Gavin

When you say " a twa*" is that the same thing that twains run on?



Edited by jude33 (09/01/07 05:34 AM)

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#356751 - 09/01/07 08:35 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
C'mon guys... Ed's not a twat, but he's a "perfect storm" as a skeptic. He makes some good arguments and some bad arguments, as do we all...

Having had some recent experience with "western medicine" treating my wife's cancer, I can assure you all that they don't have definitive answers to anything. They only have "billing"... and whatever agreements they've made with the insurance companies about how long to prolong your dying process before letting you kick off.

They spent a quarter of a million dollars on her first round of chemotherapy, and they had a "medicine for everything"... at some cost. They had a chemical that would kill off the white blood cells, and one that would cause them to regenerate "naturally". They had one that would treat her compromised immune system, which they destroyed doing the chemo. Hell, they probably had one to change her hair color when it came back from falling out because of the radiation and chemo. They just didn't have a "cure" for anything.

What did they recommend? "Alternate therapies"... such as acupuncture... reiki... therapeutic massage... anything for a dollar... as long as they had somebody in their "network" as a provider.

Hell, even the Hospice was willing to try putting her on "alternate therapies"... like trying to start her on an exercise program knowing she had only weeks to live...

The difference between being in the "doctor's shoes" and a "cowboy's shoes" is that the cowboy knows that the bull$hit's on the outside of them...

Western medicine can't cure anything that isn't a surgical process, such as appendecitis or coronary artery disease that doesn't heal naturally. They simply control the length of time it takes you to die from it... period. It can be years... it can be months... it can be weeks. When they really "screw the pooch", it can be days.

Maybe TCM can't cure everything, but I've seen some amazing results over the years from simple techniques such as chiropractic, acupuncture, and massage... which accents the body's natural systems to take care of itself... and I've seen some good medicines from western medicine, such as penicillin and "other antibiotics" to treat specific diseases... but nothing that can actually treat a pathologic disease to a cure. Either the body can cure it or it can't...

What western medicine seems satisfied to do is to sacrifice one organ for another... such as giving you medicines that will ruin your liver to treat your cholesterol problem. Our system of "payment" is to be willing to sacrifice those things to keep doctors on pedestals and continue the myth of the miracle cures.

My daughter is a medical professional, and can tell you first hand about every medicine that's in use today... and also about "how long" the life expectancy from using it is. Being in the military, she's fully aware of the power of "other things" to help soldiers get through their injuries and diseases besides the next new medicine. Maybe TCM only gives you a little faith in yourself and in your body to cure your illnesses... and that might be all it takes.

I don't really think anybody has the answers...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356752 - 09/01/07 09:16 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Unfortunately it isn't in the financial interests of the drugs companies to actually cure anything. Much better to product drugs to alleviate symptoms. That way the patient has to keep buying more and more of them to keep the symptoms at bay. Curing something means you no longer have a customer to buy your product. Even better if those drugs produce side effects that can be alleviated by selling different drugs.

In western medicine drugs companies and doctors only earn money when we're ill so it's not in their interests to make you better. I have heard however, that in China it was the practice for a family to pay a doctor a monthly stipend to keep them well. If they became ill they would stop paying the doctor until he made them well again. This way the doctor becomes an expert on preventative medicine and actually curing things.
Hmmm. I wonder if there's any way we can persuade our medical establishment to take this route.

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#356753 - 09/01/07 09:26 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The human being is a mind, body, and spirit.




With all due respect, Bushi, that is not a fact. I'll grant you mind and body - but spirit? What is that?

Quote:

So something as simple as praying every day can have a huge effect in some cases. This is something that has been mentioned in a few periodicals, with doctors endorsing the concept.




Again, not arguing that the act of praying can have a placebo-type effect on the patient, but this is not proving that the prayer did anything at all.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#356754 - 09/01/07 02:19 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
western medicine doesn't cure? look at your upper arm...see that circular scar? was that scar from vaccination shots or from accupuncture? a few shots when you are almost too young to remember, and you're protected against some pretty nasty diseases for LIFE. Thats as 'hollistic' as you can get. If you place your standards of the word 'cure' to mean 'curing death', then you have high standards indeed. I'm not that picky - talk all the politics and corruption in the world of medicine and big business you want (which, I would agree with you), but living to 80 as oppossed to 40 is a pretty good deal western medicine has given the world, during it's first 200 years of practice vs. TCM's 2000 years.

would you rather feel 'good and natural' and die at 40, or be taking pills at 80? I certainly don't like pills, surgery or side-effect treatments....but I wouldn't like dying at 40 either, no matter how aligned my chi was.

as far as I know, TCM can't make any medical claim other than easing pain/discomfort and giving peace of mind. Thats the function of TCM - giving peace of mind to those seeking it.
nothing wrong with that. nothing wrong with praying either.


Q: "what can you actually do with chi?"

A: Hope.

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#356755 - 09/01/07 05:15 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I'm not so sure that preventing a disease is the same thing as curing it. I don't have salmonella poisoning because I keep things clean around the kitchen, but if I got it, I don't think a kitchen scrub would do me much good... same with vaccines. They might keep a germ from getting started, but do nothing to kill it once its got a foothold.

As for the living to 80 deal, you're attributing only the medical advances to that change. There are social and lifestyle changes that add a lot to that number, and while the culprits might have been discovered from analyzing diseases and conditions, changing a lifestyle can cause changes in longevity as well. There are also changes in the kind of work and activities you take part in that can affect it.

I just find it interesting that doctors now send their terminal patients to "alternative" medical practices... think maybe their guilt factor for bull$1tting the public about what they can actually cure has something to do with it? I certainly do... and I have pretty recent experience in that.

I did a lot of research when my wife was battling cancer, and what I discovered was that the "advertised" advances in most cases was something they could do in a lab with a rat, but nothing that they could actually do clinically. The cancer treatment folks advertise being able to track down individual cancer cells in such procedures as "sentinal node biopsys"... but having that information doesn't translate into anything clinical to help a cancer patient.

It's like knowing the airliner identification number of the plane that hit the twin towers... it's interesting information, but it doesn't help the folks affected by it one bit. Cancer treatment is BIG business, and it's not really cancer treatment... it's "delaying death" treatment.

We all live and we all die... and how much we spend on the way to the grave is a matter of how badly we want to live that one extra day, and what we're willing to sacrifice in order to do it.

Only the rocks live forever...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356756 - 09/01/07 05:49 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Seems like you're having an interesting discussion. While I fall firmly on Ed's side of this argument, I thought this recent British TV program might be a nice discussion point. It is by Richard Dawkins, a (I think I'm justified in saying this) fundamentalist atheist Oxford professor, who has made a number of television shows arguing against faith and religion as "irrational." Although it cannot be called balanced, it is very interesting all the same:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4720837385783230047

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#356757 - 09/01/07 05:52 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I agree with you on most of those points. however, lifestyles didn't just spontaneously change for the better. My point is, was it a spread of awareness of chi flow or was the discovery of germs, bacteria and viruses the driving forces behind the awareness of social cleanliness and other changes you mention?


Quote:

...but having that information doesn't translate into anything clinical to help a cancer patient.


technically, nor does having information about Chinese medicine. The question when faced (or faced with a loved one) with a terminal illness is, how can suffering be eased. Western medicine doesn't deal much with the psychological aspect - they only refer or peripheral accomidate during the psychological stages people go thru. some seek out group discussion therepy, some turn to their religious programs, some smoke weed, some pursue various TCM practices, some commit suicide.

all lead to the same place: dying. it comes down to preference of how you wish your suffering to be eased.

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#356758 - 09/02/07 08:37 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Okay... let's get back to technique rather than healing qualities for a moment.

I was teaching some "grip" techniques, and one of the students (69 year old woman with small hands) was having difficulty having her hands fit around the wrist of her uke. She was "almost there", but simply could not make the technique work for her.

I walked over and simply cupped my hand over her technique (not touching it) and her uke's knees blew forward and he went to the ground. All I had done was to move my hand beyond her fingertips into what would have been "proper position" for her, and extended my energy. The uke said that when I did, it felt like somebody dropped a car on his wrist. How do you explain that?

The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography, so "blending ki" (which is the basis of Aikido) could involve any number of people, correct? Then why would me lending her my "hand position" create that dynamic? The only answer is "ki"... because there wasn't anything else in play there.



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356759 - 09/02/07 09:55 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:


I walked over and simply cupped my hand over her technique (not touching it) and her uke's knees blew forward and he went to the ground. All I had done was to move my hand beyond her fingertips into what would have been "proper position" for her, and extended my energy. The uke said that when I did, it felt like somebody dropped a car on his wrist. How do you explain that?



I can't. I also can't always explain why people fall down and convulse when they have hands 'layed on' them by a faith healer.
Psychology would explain your event as the student unconsciously showing immense respect to you - that it should work since it's you, means they subconsciouly make it work. They do what it expected of them, gaining your approval/attention/love of their faith in you. I think the term is 'subjective validation'.


Quote:


The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography,



you are kidding right? kirilian photography with respect to it showing energy fields has been quite debunked (actually, thats a good one for the show 'mythbusters' since people still sell and buy this phenomenon). Here's how it's debunked: put an object in a vacuum and the 'aura' goes away. The effect is caused by moisture, pressure and air. take away the moisture and air, and you get no aura. Also, inanimate and inorganic man-made objects, like a plastic leaf from a fake plant also produce a spectactular 'life force' with this photography. does a synthetic leaf have ki energy or chi circulation?


Quote:

so "blending ki" (which is the basis of Aikido) could involve any number of people, correct? Then why would me lending her my "hand position" create that dynamic? The only answer is "ki"... because there wasn't anything else in play there.




in the realm of scientific observation, that would be called a 'jump to conclusion' and/or 'magical thinking'. There was something else in play...the student who was actually in contact with her.

what needs to be tested, is you being able to do that same thing to a stranger and non-believer of ki. I'll point you in the direction to do that test, and if sucessful, you will be awarded a significant amount of money:
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

making anything move without touching it under test conditions would be a revolution in these types of test. why? because nobody has done it. you'd be quite famous and rich.

let us know how that turns out for you...or send me a postcard while you travel the World enjoying your money!

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#356760 - 09/02/07 09:58 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't believe this chi garbage for a second. I think that explains why none of this chi "stuff" works on me or practically anyone else who has little "faith".




-John


Edited by JKogas (09/02/07 10:09 AM)

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#356761 - 09/02/07 10:48 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: JKogas]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
You are of course absolutely right not to believe in something that you haven't seen or experienced first hand.
That is why these kind of discussions are meaningless. There are those who have experienced such phenonena that defy what we would call rational explanation and so believe there is something else which is then labelled chi for want of a more precise term and those who have had no direct experience and so have only read or heard about it but naturally search for other explanations to expain away the phenomena that they have heard or read about.
The chi-worshippers versus the chi-bashers looks all set to become the next religious divide.

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#356762 - 09/02/07 10:49 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I don't deny that chi-based MAists can be extremely skilled - I just reject what many attribute the skill to.

wristwister's hand likely guided the uke more than the student....and the connection being more of a ideomotor effect, than a projection of energy.

found a good and detailed article here with a 0.3 sec google query as part of my 5 minute research methods if anyone wants to read up on it more:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html

not chi-bashing. using the optional chi construct as a tool to imagine complex physics is visualization - thats cool. Describing chi as a paranormal phenomenon is something else.

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#356763 - 09/02/07 01:51 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography,



you are kidding right? kirilian photography with respect to it showing energy fields has been quite debunked (actually, thats a good one for the show 'mythbusters' since people still sell and buy this phenomenon). Here's how it's debunked: put an object in a vacuum and the 'aura' goes away. The effect is caused by moisture, pressure and air. take away the moisture and air, and you get no aura. Also, inanimate and inorganic man-made objects, like a plastic leaf from a fake plant also produce a spectactular 'life force' with this photography. does a synthetic leaf have ki energy or chi circulation?







Everything in the universe has some form of energy according to physics. Atoms and their subparticles are/have/ give off energy? Isnt moisture a way of allowing electricity to flow? Isnt electricity termed as a form of energy? Remove the moisture and the energy cant flow? Life force? Define life force? Maybe it wasnt life force he meant what ever life force is. I dont know anything about the kirilin photography but what I have read about is that the role of sodium atoms in the generation of a nerve impulse. The energy source and the signal source for each neuron is the electrially charged sodium ion.(electicity is termed as energy?) In other words electrochemical reactions in the human body.

Now is chi a term for energy? The term chi as I said I dont fully understand yet but at this moment in time I am sitting on the fence.Perhaps all the false claims made by certain people about chi doesnt mean that chi doesnt exist merely that what they are doing might be B.S.

Perhaps the true meaning of chi is energy and maybe a name given by some one at some time to explain their ideas on the electro chemical workings of the human body? I dont know. What I do know is that certain techniques using the human body in the correct way (muscle torque, momentum etc) gives a lot more power to the technique. So maybe as usual with humans the word chi to describe a form of energy has got away from the original intention. I dont know.

But rather then write off claims off chi I personaly would like to explore it further.

Wrist twister to a degree I think I can see your points but as usual it is early days.

I am still trying to work out the true meaning of the term chi

Jude

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#356764 - 09/02/07 02:46 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I don't deny that chi-based MAists can be extremely skilled - I just reject what many attribute the skill to.



That’s because you choose not to believe in anything you can’t put into your neat framework of “this causes that, and that causes this”. We’re not talking chi-balls here, simply joining energy with one another. Are you saying electrical energy and potential fields won’t combine if held closely together? If so, you’re changing the entire field of electrical engineering. Use your “google-fu” to study capacitors, and see how they’re made.

Quote:

wristwister's hand likely guided the uke more than the student....and the connection being more of a ideomotor effect, than a projection of energy.




Wrong answer, but thank you for playing. The uke couldn’t see what I did unless his peripheral vision picked it up. He was looking up and away when I” loaned her my fingers”.


What I picked up from the article you quoted is that first of all, the author set up the framework of the “proof” as proof before establishing anything, so like most scientific “proofs” … if we can’t duplicate it, it can’t be happening, especially as advertised. I especially like how they cover all their bases so if you come to the defense of something they can’t disprove you’re automatically falling into one of their “groups” of “misguided followers”.

Ideomotor action , for instance… would be techniques dependent on “undetectable motor movement”… if there’s movement, the science gurus should be able to detect it. Remember the premise… if we can’t measure it and duplicate it, it can’t be happening.

Projection of the operator’s action to an external force … Only ki is projecting internal energy into external action, so they are disproving the reverse theory, and claiming it as “proof” that ki doesn’t exist, right? Even in their arguments, they can’t have it both ways. This isn’t using the dowsing rod, but simply extending energy from one person to another through contact, and applying that energy to create a technique, either of healing or martial arts.


The rest of their “proofs” lay in establishing “the hoodwinked society” of believers that were automatically misguided followers of the phenomena since they couldn’t prove or disprove it…

The cause of the action is attributed to forces new to science and revolutionary in nature … What have they been smokin’? Chi has been used for over 2000 years in both TCM and martial arts sciences… their “new” proofs are the only “new” things around here.

Delusions of Grandeur … boy, they did hit that one on the head. Scientists always have those. They constantly “prove and disprove” each other and every one of them is the smartest guy in the world… until next week when their findings are disputed. The pharmaceutical industry is rift with “miracles of science” that turn out to be nightmares, as their “miracle medicines” start killing people who believe in them, and take their medications. How many “chi” recalls have you seen?

Delusions of persecution … Those same people do have delusions of persecution as well… they believe they have all the answers, and their own pig-headedness, conformism, and unwillingness to give credit to any idea except their own “proofs” tend to exclude outsiders from the scientific establishment… back to the idea “if we can’t prove it, it can’t be happening”.

To be forewarned is to be disarmed … Where the scientist will accuse the “charlatan” of warning the audience that “this doesn’t work on everyone”, they take the same approach to scientific proofs… a la “undetectable motion”, undefineable movements, etc. They simply “craft the language” so that if they can’t prove something… you guessed it… it can’t be happening. It’s either a trick or a clever deception.

Self-healing belief systems … This is the favorite argument of science-based “myth-busters”. They allude to everything they can’t detect, trace or disprove to being part of the “hoodwinked society’s” illusions regarding the phenomenen. This is the way to close any loopholes in their research, and to ascribe all “undetectable items” to psychological deceptions on the part of the supposed charlatan.

What the clown that wrote this article missed including was the “God complex” of scientists… for they seem to think that no matter what they think, it must be true because they can offer “proof”.
Go back through history and see how science has changed over the years, and how many “scientific proofs” have been debunked and proved to be frauds. Look at how scientists have fought tooth and nail over “definitive science” in every area of endeavor. Then look at how the “art” of ki projection and chi healing have survived.

Remember, Ed, radio waves don't exist... I looked inside my radio and didn't see any of them, and I stuck my hand in there and couldn't feel any of them. But if you think radio waves do exist, do you believe in "transmitters" and "receivers"? Who's to say that chi doesn't work the same way?.. the scientists, who don't want to believe in it to start with because they can't make money on it?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356765 - 09/02/07 03:07 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
well, thanks for the edumacation. next time I use an ouija board with the kids, and it types out your name, I'll be sure to let them know your chi is STRONG!

lol...I still can't believe you pulled out 'Kirlian photography' into the argument. haha. When I was getting my Electrical engineering degree at B.U., for fun, we actually DID take a look at this phenomenon that was getting a resurgence of press at the time. you shoulda seen the awesome aura a twinkie gives out! haha...thanks again for the laugh.


btw...hows that million dollar challenge application coming along?
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

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#356766 - 09/02/07 03:44 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Quote:

Delusions of Grandeur … boy, they did hit that one on the head. Scientists always have those. They constantly “prove and disprove” each other and every one of them is the smartest guy in the world… until next week when their findings are disputed. The pharmaceutical industry is rift with “miracles of science” that turn out to be nightmares, as their “miracle medicines” start killing people who believe in them, and take their medications. How many “chi” recalls have you seen?



That's what science is, a series of trials and errors. We wouldn't have come this far in science if nobody contested theories, tests, hypotheses, etcetera. Did you know people used to think that living organisms can be born from inanimate objects? You know what happened? A scientist decided to prove it wrong, and he did. Did you know we used to think that everything revolved around Earth? A scientist decided to prove it wrong, and he did. Do you know there are people who are contesting Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity? I can go on and on, but I hope my point was made. Everything we know came from scientists disproving each other, and if you ask me, it's a lot better than everyone agreeing on the same thing, which would result in no progress at all.

Quote:

Then look at how the “art” of ki projection and chi healing have survived.



All thanks to Dragon Ball Z (even though it's my favorite show).

I apologize if I sounded rude, but by no means was that my intention. I greatly apologize if that's what I came across as.

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#356767 - 09/02/07 03:58 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
tell you what, for the sake of entertainment, let me do something unprecidented and assume your observations are valid on all counts.

question 1: assuming you did interact with another persons intrinsic energy without making contact, which caused them to execute a proper technique. How do you then conclude it was 'ki' and nothing else? How do exclude divine intervention? some cultures would interpret that same act as a sign from god(s)...why is that an invalid interpretation? I could go on with a list of possible explainations based on various belief systems...why is your interpretation as it being 'ki' the only one possible?

question 2: You studied MA and various IMA's for a combined 40+ years, yes? am I to understand this was an isolated event and you can't interact your ki at will? If so, then you should be able to interact it without touch to a blindfolded stranger who has never studied Aikido - is that correct?

question 3: If science can't disprove something, then you don't believe it is scientifically explainable...but yet if TCM/IMA, etc can't prove something, it's only because it does not have to go thru the same scrutany since it's beyond current science explaination?

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#356768 - 09/02/07 05:32 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, this is all for entertainment.

I simply think that too much is made of being able to "prove" everything in the world. Martial arts techniques are all "the now", as in zen, and either work or they don't. Teaching someone to gain a proper position or movement by "extending ki" is no different than you telling them to strike into the elbow joint to changed the shape of their arm. You say "tomato", I say "to-mahto"...

Ki is a subject for discussion... and if you think you have to prove or disprove it's existance, go for it. After all your scientific study, I'll bet I can still find people who believe in it's characteristics, use, and qualities... and they aren't charlatans, they simply think differently.

Was Da Vinci a scientist or an artist?... and did he learn more from his scientific studies, or his art studies? I think we learn from a lot of different areas, and if you choose not to define ki in anything but scientific terms, that's your choice. I choose to use it as a technique of teaching and learning martial arts... of teaching a student to express energy in different ways and to protect themselves using concepts that are thousands of years old.

If they work, then it's not a bad way to learn. If not, then we need a different explanation... right now, it works.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356769 - 09/02/07 05:43 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
agreed. I can't disprove 'ki' as an energy, but many can prove that it's a belief.

so...does this mean you aren't going to collect your $1,000,000 then?

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#356770 - 09/02/07 06:08 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
with respect to the thread topic...

This seems to be a well-balanced summary:
http://shugenkai.com/ki.htm

the only aspect I'd cautiously add to that is the psychological connection between uke and partner, between student and teacher, and between dojo culture and class.

what I mean is, that psychological connection can allow a technique to work smoothly in the dojo - but not so well outside the dojo culture against someone truely resisting.

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#356771 - 09/02/07 07:42 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Everything in the universe has some form of energy according to physics. Atoms and their subparticles are/have/ give off energy? Isnt moisture a way of allowing electricity to flow? Isnt electricity termed as a form of energy? Remove the moisture and the energy cant flow?


Don't you mean "conduct" and "transferred" rather than "flow"?

Quote:

Now is chi a term for energy?


No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.

Qi/Ki in the TCM context is essentially an "umbrella term" ascribed to a range of phenomena - for which the ancients had no (scientific or otherwise) explanation. Also, qi is not an "entity"... it is simply a term used to describe the functional aspects of "something" within the context of the "system" being described. E.g. ten ki/tian qi - qi/ki used in the context of the sky or "heavens" simply means "weather". It doesn't mean the heavens have "qi" - although it may have been believed to be at one time, when pre-historic people imagined unknown and unseen forces to be the machinations of the "gods" and "sprites".

So, any discussion of qi/ki and what it is, apart from being off-topic, is entirely misleading. What can you do with it has already been mostly addressed in the earlier part of this thread - i.e. well-being, health, martial applications etc.

However, health and well-being is a complex subject, and can be affected by a range of things e.g. genetics, diet, lifestyle, and environment - all of which are described as in TCM as "qi" AND from a functional perspective. Of course, in MWM terms, we have an entirely different syntax (language) and context to describe these things.

So, I think, for all intents and purposes, the discussion of what can you do with qi/ki, should be limited to martial applications.

And to throw a wrench into the works, Ki of the Heavens can also mean "gravity". So, if I push into you with one finger to take your CoG beyond the point where you have to topple over, theoretically speaking, I am "borrowing" the Ki of Heaven to throw you.


Edited by eyrie (09/02/07 07:45 PM)

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#356772 - 09/02/07 09:17 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, good article... very enjoyable.

Quote:

what I mean is, that psychological connection can allow a technique to work smoothly in the dojo - but not so well outside the dojo culture against someone truely resisting.




I don't know how others train, but the more you resist, the better my techniques work, and the more dynamic they are. FWIW

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356773 - 09/02/07 09:47 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I have no reason not to believe you.
Good discussion, Grady.

the most interesting to me in chats like this are the questions that AREN'T addressed. The black holes, dark matter, vortexes, empty space and chakras of the conversation.

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#356774 - 09/03/07 01:35 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

the most interesting to me in chats like this are the questions that AREN'T addressed. The black holes, dark matter, vortexes, empty space and chakras of the conversation.




Well, I "google-fued" your argument about Kirlian photography and it was as I remembered. What has been debunked is "aura" uses of the Kirlian technique...
FYI.

From Wikipedia... knower of all things past, present, and hopefully helpful...

Quote:

Kirlian photography is completely different from "Aura photography," in which a colorful image is produced of a persons face and upper torso, using various methods of biofeedback. People commonly use the term "Kirlian photography" to erroneously refer to "Aura photography," and vice-versa. The terms have almost become interchangeable, even though the techniques are completely different. This leads to confusion among those who not familiar with the two different techniques. The Kirlian technique is contact photography, in which the subject is in direct contact with the film which is placed upon a metal plate that is charged with high voltage, high frequency electricity. In Aura Photography, no high voltage is involved as with the Kirlian technique, and no direct contact with the film is made. The images made with an Aura camera do not result from coronal discharge, the colors are projected with fiber optics.




My point was that it was a "contact" imaging technique, and is legitimate. "Aura" photography falls right in with chi-balls and black holes.

FWIW

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356775 - 09/03/07 06:19 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography,





you are kidding right? kirilian photography with respect to it showing energy fields has been quite debunked (actually, thats a good one for the show 'mythbusters' since people still sell and buy this phenomenon). Here's how it's debunked: put an object in a vacuum and the 'aura' goes away. The effect is caused by moisture, pressure and air. take away the moisture and air, and you get no aura. Also, inanimate and inorganic man-made objects, like a plastic leaf from a fake plant also produce a spectactular 'life force' with this photography. does a synthetic leaf have ki energy or chi circulation?







I think wristtwister is right.The only part that was debunked is the paranormal claims part.The experiment still shows energy in motion. The gas ionization photographed around the body needed a living body with electro and mechanical energy in the body as well as the other elements required for the experiment. The fact it wouldnt work in a vacuum only proved it wasnt paranormal.It doesnt disprove the human body is a walking bundle of electro and mechanical energy.

Jude

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#356776 - 09/03/07 06:37 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Now is chi a term for energy?


No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.

Qi/Ki in the TCM context is essentially an "umbrella term" ascribed to a range of phenomena - for which the ancients had no (scientific or otherwise) explanation. Also, qi is not an "entity"... it is simply a term used to describe the functional aspects of "something" within the context of the "system" being described. E.g. ten ki/tian qi - qi/ki used in the context of the sky or "heavens" simply means "weather". It doesn't mean the heavens have "qi" - although it may have been believed to be at one time, when pre-historic people imagined unknown and unseen forces to be the machinations of the "gods" and "sprites".

So, any discussion of qi/ki and what it is, apart from being off-topic, is entirely misleading. What can you do with it has already been mostly addressed in the earlier part of this thread - i.e. well-being, health, martial applications etc.

However, health and well-being is a complex subject, and can be affected by a range of things e.g. genetics, diet, lifestyle, and environment - all of which are described as in TCM as "qi" AND from a functional perspective. Of course, in MWM terms, we have an entirely different syntax (language) and context to describe these things.

So, I think, for all intents and purposes, the discussion of what can you do with qi/ki, should be limited to martial applications.

And to throw a wrench into the works, Ki of the Heavens can also mean "gravity". So, if I push into you with one finger to take your CoG beyond the point where you have to topple over, theoretically speaking, I am "borrowing" the Ki of Heaven to throw you.




Thanks .
With chi Im still none the wiser. Not yet.
I will re read what you have written again. I understand the c.o.g part. I use it in sparring/ training on unknowing opponents. Just to go off topic I am looking at rooting and spirreling as discussed by hsing i/bagau practioners
who also refer to circleing found in ju jitsu and aikido.

Getting head aches with that as well. Ah well back to the studies.

Jude

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#356777 - 09/03/07 07:33 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Quote:
Now is chi a term for energy?

No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.




I actually disagree with that. Ki/Qi I think translates perfectly well to energy. The Chinese would say that everything is merely of a manifestation of Qi. Whilst there are many forms of Qi within the Oriental Medicine model, they all are a manifestation Qi that has gone through a particular transformation to manifest in any particular state. I think this is where the theory correlates very well with western physic's saying that at a base level all matter is energy and thus made of the same stuff.

I'd like to throw a question out to the crowd...how many of you use Windows on your computer? If you do, I'd like to ask why you don't use an operating system system like Linux ? If you're using Linux how many of you compile your own kernal? If you're doing that I might ask why you're even bothering to do that, why not just simply write your own code to directly with the hardware within your computer? Obviously to use the tools you've been given you need to be able to understand computer science down to a level whereby you interact directly with the hardware don't you? Actually whilst we are here, why don't you actually make your own hardware?

So why do you use windows? Could it be that someone has done all the hard work and provided you with something you can use straight out of the box? Could it be that you can now make movies, web pages, computer applications and use your computer at a fairly high level without having to be a computer science PHD. Could you be using windows because it is a simple model upon which you could do things that otherwise would be greatly outside of your capabilities? Obviously there are some that want to have more control over their computer so they may pick Linux or another UNIX system. Then there maybe some that want to go to university and make there own operating system. Those that know computer engineers will testify that most operate a such a low level most are oblivious to what more high level users are doing or even want.

To me, oriental medicine is the windows (perhaps Linux would be more accurate) of the medical world (or Martial). It is a neat package that allows me to interact with the body at a fairly deep level without being a Doctor. How many top doctors do you see specializing in more than one specific bodily system? You don't see many Cardiac Specialist hacking open someones skull to play with their brain do you? Although you do have General Practitioners who act as a front line to refer to specialists. Most GP's knowledge whom I've spoken to is patchy at best, what they need is a general model, a Windows for the body, in which to be able to operate in a general more holistic manner.

It dawned on me that I haven't answered the question of what I can do with Chi. My answer would be nothing that every single one of us is capable. What I will do is answer a question as to what I've done with the "model of observation" that is Chi just this year. Within the space of a month of treatments a lady who came to me on anti-depressants was off them. Another lady reduced the amount of pain killers she was taking within two treatments as part of her rehab after an operation to virtually nothing. I've helped relieve more than a dozen re-occuring injuries that other forms of therapy haven't help. I've helped well over 100 martial artists better understand their arts.

For all the bitching and whining that is going on about proof I'd like to flip the question around. Using your model of observation of the world, what have you done? How many of you have made the world a better place for you being here? How many lives have you touched for the better? To me, the results justify the means and a good yardstick for how well you've lived your life is to look at the good you've done for world. Has your cynicism benefited the world? Is the world a better place for you having been here? If it is, then what the f*ck difference does it make how you view the world?

And for the record I very rarely mention the word Chi in anything I do. I just share my understanding of how the world works with people. During my treatments, unless asked, I don't tell the person what I'm doing. They've come to me because they trust in my abilities and the results they produce. As I said, using your model of observation and experience, what have you done with it for the betterment of the world?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356778 - 09/03/07 07:46 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ah...now you google-fu'ers rely on wikipedia.

Quote:

The experiment still shows energy in motion. The gas ionization photographed around the body needed a living body with electro and mechanical energy in the body as well as the other elements required for the experiment. The fact it wouldnt work in a vacuum only proved it wasnt paranormal.It doesnt disprove the human body is a walking bundle of electro and mechanical energy.




wrong. keep reading, google-meister. it doesn't need a living body. it's also true that a plastic, synthetic made leaf and a coin and a twinkie also have the same 'bundle of electro energy' as 'evidenced' by the photography.

it's not evidence that the human body is 'emitting' anything mysterious or unique, like wristwister was originally suggesting. He context it in terms of evidencing Ki - when he looked it up on wikipedia like google-fuer's do, he redefined his suggestion to fit within the more reasonable. (by negating the confused term 'aura photography').

thats how things like this get misunderstood - you look at a kirlian photo of a hand and see the effect of it within an electrical field and determine 'energy in the hand is interacting and causing the field disturbance....therefore the human body must have a life force of some kind.'
which is EXACTLY why wristwister mentioned it in the first place, in the hopes to further his point of evidence of Ki.

however, my earlier question went unanswered: does a synthetic leaf made out of plastic emit an energy? does a twinkie have 'ki'? because they sure do produce a spectacular kirlian effect...even better than a hand.

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#356779 - 09/03/07 07:55 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Now is chi a term for energy?

No, it is a common mistake to equate qi/ki with energy. This is one of the problems of "lost in translation" - how to succinctly substitute an appropriate word/term in another language which encapsulates the richness of another, especially since "English" is a terribly bastardized language.




I actually disagree with that. Ki/Qi I think translates perfectly well to energy. The Chinese would say that everything is merely of a manifestation of Qi. Whilst there are many forms of Qi within the Oriental Medicine model, they all are a manifestation Qi that has gone through a particular transformation to manifest in any particular state. I think this is where the theory correlates very well with western physic saying that at a base level all matter is energy and thus made of the same stuff.



Mate, read the rest of the paragraph... especially the bit where it says doesn't quite "encapsulate the richness"...

FWIW, in terms of martial application, I think "force", and in particular, "pressure" is a more accurate description, although I don't disagree with what you said. "Energy", IMHO, is a little too vague.

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#356780 - 09/03/07 07:59 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Yeah my bad...I just read the quote rather than your actual post! I agree!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#356781 - 09/03/07 08:07 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
using your operating system analogy...why would you install a much older version?

your question to everyone that assumes you are morally on higher ground since you took depressed people's money to show them how to feel better about themselves without using western science qualification, that you somehow contributed more to Humanity....teach hundreds of kids math and science for free, teach English in a foreign country to kids for free, have kids of your own and raise them to the best of your ability, while sacrificing your own wants and desires. sell your condo and put ALL of the equity in your kids bank account for their college education. teach martial arts for free.

you always try to change these conversations to the personal...you don't know everyone on here, you have no idea what people have contributed and sacrificed during their lives - so how can you even begin to compare?

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#356782 - 09/03/07 08:22 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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I don't charge for shiatsu treatments Ed yet anyway...but I still need to eat anyhows)! And my operating system is being upgrading every single day Ed. What have you studied today Ed? This morning I've done an hour of Taiji and Qi Gong. I've been studying the muscles of the body (including origins and insertions) for my up and coming western anatomy and physiology exam, tonight I'll being doing an hour of MMA training with a local fighter and then taking my own self defence class (admittedly I charge for that...I do have to eat!). What have you done today to justify you're continual arguing from either a western or eastern point of view? What have you done to upgrade your operating system>

Funny how when we get to discussing what good your doing for the world you get all defensive Ed. Again if I'm helping someone with Shiatsu, a faith healer is helping someone or a doctor who is on a 6 figure salary is helping someone what difference does their method of life observation make? WHAT GOOD IS YOUR SKEPTICISM DOING??????

EDIT - I reread your post, I take it all those things you spoke about are things that you're doing. Sound rather bitter about helping others Eddy baby? An angry little man who should rejoice in the good his doing rather than projecting bitterness onto others.

Forgot another thing I have because of Chi...a happy life!


Edited by Gavin (09/03/07 08:27 AM)
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#356783 - 09/03/07 08:25 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

ah...now you google-fu'ers rely on wikipedia.

Quote:

The experiment still shows energy in motion. The gas ionization photographed around the body needed a living body with electro and mechanical energy in the body as well as the other elements required for the experiment. The fact it wouldnt work in a vacuum only proved it wasnt paranormal.It doesnt disprove the human body is a walking bundle of electro and mechanical energy.



Quote:


wrong. keep reading, google-meister. it doesn't need a living body.




Writings of hines
Living things ...are moist. When the electricity enters the living object , it produces an area of gas ionization around the photographed object, assuming moisture is present on the object. This moisture is transferred from the subject to the emulsion surface of the photographic film and causes an alternation of the electric charge pattern on the film. If a photograph is taken in a vacuum, where no ionized gas is present, no Kirlian image appears. If the Kirlian image were due to some paranormal fundamental living energy field, it should not disappear in a simple vacuum (Hines 2003).

End of the writing from hines



Are those the words of the guy who disputed the paranormal claim?

Change the experiment to a vaccuum and there will be no ionization of gas because there will be no gas to ionize.
It still doesnt repute the human body has electro mechanical energy as written by wristtwister.


I will come back to the other question

Jude

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#356784 - 09/03/07 08:30 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Quote:



you always try to change these conversations to the personal...you don't know everyone on here, you have no idea what people have contributed and sacrificed during their lives - so how can you even begin to compare?




That's why I asked what your model of observation gets you. My whole point was if you are doing something to benefit who are you to question what makes them do it?
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#356785 - 09/03/07 08:38 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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well, today is a holiday (ironically called 'labor day' in the US). woke up and had a 1/2 cup of coffee and took a crap while reading 'angry white pajamas' - great book btw.

scaned the newspaper, then the kids woke up and we made breakfast together....I was teaching them how to make a 'light over easy' egg without breaking it. sat down and ate over a discussion about what to do today - we decided on the 3-county fair, which is a traveling amusement park in the area this weekend. they can bring 1 friend each. so it looks like today I'll be waiting in line for ride-tickets while 4 pre-teens seek out the most dangerous looking contraptions to trust their lives on. amusement parks always facinate me - I can just sit there and look at the rides, working on mentally figuring out the physics and dynamics of each. occationally riding on ones that look fun.

that'll be my day.

[edit] oops, did I say 'pre-teens'? I meant 'young-teens'...they are growing up fast.

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#356786 - 09/03/07 08:42 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Sounds like a productive day and I agree totally that it is a great book. A great way to use your Chi and creating some productive interactions of energy.
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#356787 - 09/03/07 08:55 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I'm happy to hear you can appreciate the more subtle training oportunities that exist everyday. standing in line is good training. even taking a crap can be an opportunity - dropping your weight using your hara. lol

good chatting. have a great day.

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#356788 - 09/03/07 09:07 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

however, my earlier question went unanswered: does a synthetic leaf made out of plastic emit an energy?




Yes it does but no point in arguing about it as plastic leaves dont practice martial arts well at least the ones I have seen dont. Maybe other things could be discussed such as rooting or spirelling or even martial arts techniques that make use of chi maybe?

Ps I think from your lack of response you were proven wrong about the experiment but never mind, dont feel bad, be happy, have chi, these things happen.

Why do I feel so good all of a sudden?


Wristtwister you were correct.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/03/07 09:17 AM)

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#356789 - 09/03/07 09:16 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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It's all cool with me baby. Steve R actually says that having a crap is one of life's natural Zen moments!

Here's his take on the whole Chi thing...t'is a good read!

http://www.shikon.com/Z%20Is%20Chi%20Real.htm

Have a nice day off!
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#356790 - 09/03/07 10:58 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Esoteric learning... "knowing is doing"...

"There are those things that can be explained but not done, there are those things that can be done but not explained"... Fumio Toyoda (in a dinner conversation after a seminar).

Gavin...

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#356791 - 09/03/07 06:44 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

however, my earlier question went unanswered: does a synthetic leaf made out of plastic emit an energy?




Yes it does but no point in arguing about it as plastic leaves dont practice martial arts well at least the ones I have seen dont. Maybe other things could be discussed such as rooting or spirelling or even martial arts techniques that make use of chi maybe?

Ps I think from your lack of response you were proven wrong about the experiment but never mind, dont feel bad, be happy, have chi, these things happen.




you are incorrect. These are YOUR words:

Quote:

The gas ionization photographed around the body needed a living body with electro and mechanical energy in the body as well as the other elements required for the experiment. The fact it wouldnt work in a vacuum only proved it wasnt paranormal.It doesnt disprove the human body is a walking bundle of electro and mechanical energy.



nope, doesn't need a living body.


from the wikipedia article:
Quote:

In addition to living material, inanimate objects such as coins will also produce images on the film in a Kirlian photograph setup.




therefore, using your logic, I could also say that the Kirlian effect does not disprove that a twinkie is 'a springy bundle of electro and mechanical energy'. since the results are the same with living vs. inanimate. I could also say the Kirlian effect doesn't disprove bigfoot or the lost city of Atlantis.

see the point? This type of photographic effect doesn't support any argument that we are walking around emitting energy. which is what wristwister stated:
Quote:


The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography, so "blending ki" (which is the basis of Aikido) could involve any number of people, correct? Then why would me lending her my "hand position" create that dynamic? The only answer is "ki"... because there wasn't anything else in play there.




Which showed his misunderstanding (as most chiropractors beleiving in this photo effect do), that in fact, inanimate object also produce similar effect. however, if he's willing to say his hand produces as much ki energy as a twinkie, then Kirlian photography could not disprove that claim either.

Did you see the average age of the people reading here? SOMEBODY has to point them in the alternative direction of critical thinking in this forum section.

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#356792 - 09/03/07 07:04 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

using your operating system analogy...why would you install a much older version?


C'mon Ed... everyone knows Windows XPerimental is basically Windows 3.1 with a GUccI interface - the underlying code was basically a "working" version of OS/2 Warp (remember that one?).

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#356793 - 09/03/07 07:24 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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lol...yup. well, at least they eventually managed a 64-bit operating system AND it doesn't have to run on top of DOS.

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#356794 - 09/03/07 08:42 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
That's why I use a Mac. I don't now how it works, it just know it does.

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#356795 - 09/03/07 10:54 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
no argument there...the mac is a solid system.


verging away from the OS analogy...

my problem is, I need to pursue the 'man behind the curtain' on things in order for me to claim I am studying something. I don't need to always find THE answer, but I have to pursue it in order to be honest with myself and my path.

I accept and partially understand the conceptual construct of Chi/Ki as it relates to ways of visualization, in order to assist the learner of a physically dynamic and tactile Art. I've worked with a bit of extra focus on 'short power'/fajing this year and have made some progress with measurable result. It isn't easy trying to translate IMA concepts into a 'language' that better suits me...but thats basically what I'm doing - I'm extracting out what I perceive as the baggage which often comes packaged within language associated with Chi.

My line of questioning on topics like this, I realize is frustrating to beleivers - but it being a public forum, they have to find a way to deal with it. just as non-beleivers have to learn to deal with reading nonsense and either ignoring it or addressing it rationally.


don't want the topic to become religious in nature, but wanted to mention I read various mythology which others hold as faith. I've read them from time to time and have read some good ones cover to cover. The metaphors are sometimes clever and poetic....to read it literally is to miss some great practical wisdom. other parts of it I read as just plain whack or irrelavent to my time and space. I have the freedom to do that since I'm not pre-setting the boundry with pre-conditioned faith mechanisms. all in text is fallible (including this post, in fact ).

Like Chi, the fact what little I manage to absorb with different eyes than a believer, does not mean my distilled meaning of particular 'verse' doesn't resonate at some level with people like me: atheists.

A 'chi atheist' does not necessarily mean 'anti-chi'...it just means (can only speak for myself), that belief for belief's sake even in the face of conflicting evidence (or no evidence) does me no good - so it's filtered, not necessarily rejected. but aspects may be rejected based on the level of absurdity or strength of conflicting evidence. ('evidence' be it science, intuition or experience)

The grey areas of learning in which at multiple points along the way, we often have to choose to either be our own teacher, or follow.

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#356796 - 09/03/07 11:31 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Good luck... it sounds to me like you're trying to define and put it in this neat little box to fit your mental framework.

It's like trying to define and capture this thing called "charisma" and bottle it...

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#356797 - 09/04/07 12:10 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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well, I did start off by saying "My problem..."

it's not all that bad - you make it sound like that fairly new movie 'Perfume'.

[add]in case you didn't see the movie and missed the reference: the guy was trying to literally capture the living scent of Women...by killing them and extracting it. problem was, he realized, that by killing them the scent he was after rather changed to something he wasn't expecting.

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#356798 - 09/04/07 05:48 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:


you are incorrect. These are YOUR words:






Which part? According to science everything absorbs and emits radio magnetic radiation so that would also apply to the plastic leaf.


Quote:


nope, doesn't need a living body.

.




I will come back to that one

Quote:

In addition to living material, inanimate objects such as coins will also produce images on the film in a Kirlian photograph setup.




I will come back to that one

Quote:

therefore, using your logic, I could also say that the Kirlian effect does not disprove that a twinkie is 'a springy bundle of electro and mechanical energy'. since the results are the same with living vs. inanimate. I could also say the Kirlian effect doesn't disprove bigfoot or the lost city of Atlantis.

see the point? This type of photographic effect doesn't support any argument that we are walking around emitting energy. which is what wristwister stated:






Yes it does. The human body does emit energy
Quote:


The body is a walking bundle of electro-mechanical energy, as evidenced by kirilin photography, so "blending ki" (which is the basis of Aikido) could involve any number of people, correct? Then why would me lending her my "hand position" create that dynamic? The only answer is "ki"... because there wasn't anything else in play there.




Which showed his misunderstanding (as most chiropractors beleiving in this photo effect do), that in fact, inanimate object also produce similar effect. however, if he's willing to say his hand produces as much ki energy as a twinkie, then Kirlian photography could not disprove that claim either.

Did you see the average age of the people reading here? SOMEBODY has to point them in the alternative direction of critical thinking in this forum section.





Cant answer that one yet. There are things that cant be explained such as why do we sense things? Why does an athelete work better if they use mental imagery? .
Why do people sense things?

why do young boys throw rocks at each other? Is this a genetic memory back to our ancestors? Or are they just bad
what evers.
Things that cant be explained.

Yes, you are correct to argue. With out it people can become complacent or just dont give a what ever.
Makes people think

Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/04/07 06:08 AM)

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#356799 - 09/04/07 06:22 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Just for the record, there are several different types of synapses in the body... electrical, chemical, etc. which is how the nerve endings communicate with one another. If you'll google-fu "synapses", you'll find some interesting information about the body's electrical potentials...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapse
http://www.royalrife.com/haltiwanger1.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapse#Relationship_to_electrical_synapses

If you don't think the body has "potential", let me walk up close to you on a cold day when I'm wearing tennis shoes, and I'll make a spark jump to your earlobe... The body is a walking capacitor...

P.S. if you're a little overwhelmed with the "explanation", there's a "kids section" on this subject...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356800 - 09/04/07 06:45 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Just for the record, there are several different types of synapses in the body... electrical, chemical, etc. which is how the nerve endings communicate with one another. If you'll google-fu "synapses", you'll find some interesting information about the body's electrical potentials...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapse
http://www.royalrife.com/haltiwanger1.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapse#Relationship_to_electrical_synapses

If you don't think the body has "potential", let me walk up close to you on a cold day when I'm wearing tennis shoes, and I'll make a spark jump to your earlobe... The body is a walking capacitor...

P.S. if you're a little overwhelmed with the "explanation", there's a "kids section" on this subject...






Thanks wrist.
I agree the human body is a walking capacitor.

Im have done some study on synapses.Still have more to read though .

Just a point
From a medical standpoint
S.S.R.I.'s on a moleculer level stop the re-uptake of the chemical dopamine which is used as a chemical messenger across the synapse.

From the natural healers stand point I think the same can be achieved through natural healing methods.

As you already know dopomine is the feel good factor.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/04/07 06:58 AM)

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#356801 - 09/04/07 07:43 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
yes, static electricity...or in the mechanical sense, stored energy is also potential kinetic energy. and why stop there? we emit thermal energy also. Also, the nervous system is itself a bio-electrical internet communication system - so that must emit some type of energy field...even if it's less than a quartz watch, it would make your point.

you guys are missing the Kirlian experiment. since there is no difference in effect between an inanimate object and a living thing - then you can't use the photography as evidence of a 'life force' (such as 'Ki'). To do so violates scientific method and becomes psudoscience (selecting what data you want, eliminating other cases, for a desired outcome: which in this case is, 'evidence of ki').

no matter how you twist and turn or introduce concepts, there is one thing true from this: Kirlian photography is NOT evidence of 'Ki', it's not evidence of a 'life force', and it isn't even evidence that the human body emits/stores energy.

There ARE ways of detecting the various infintecimal bio-electrical emmisions of a human body...but Kirlian photography ain't it, Mr Googlestein and Master Dopamine.



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#356802 - 09/04/07 07:57 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
since the kirlian photography point is put to rest...

I do encourage you looking into scientific 'discovery' and method. Finding out more about 'synaptic communication' and neurology in general, is a particularly good one, since at the same time of doing so, you are increasing it's power right within your own noggin.

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#356803 - 09/04/07 08:32 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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For those looking at understanding the brain this book is a brilliant place to start looking and it is as cheap as chips:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mapping-Mind-Rit...9043&sr=8-1
_________________________
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#356804 - 09/04/07 12:09 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Quote:

since the kirlian photography point is put to rest...

I do encourage you looking into scientific 'discovery' and method. Finding out more about 'synaptic communication' and neurology in general, is a particularly good one, since at the same time of doing so, you are increasing it's power right within your own noggin.




Well not to sure if is put to rest yet, on hold at least.
The synapse thing will take some time to absorb. The chi thing well Im still sitting on the fence.

One thing that I do find interesting is the seemingly lack of internal arts/hsing I, bagau and tai chi practioners in this conversation. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on this subject. At the same time I would like to discuss their or even anybody elses methods of physical training such as rooting spirelling and the techniques they have for grabbing and pulling etc. I grab and pull. Muscle strength and off balanceing. Internal arts seem to root, grab and spirall. Different way of doing things.

Jude

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#356805 - 09/04/07 12:31 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Fisherman]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

What can you do with it once you've developed chi?



Live with it.
Seriously, what do you anticipate being able to 'do' with chi?
You doubt the authenticity of the 1" punch because why? Do you think that it has something to do with chi? Do you think that it takes chi to "bash bricks"?

The only way to really even try and understand what chi is to find a teacher in Bagua, Tai Chi or Xing Yi or some other form of practice wherein the is a emphasis on inter mind/body integration.




Hi Chris. Im afraid that is easier said than done. There are teachers even chinese teachers who teach
seemingly incorrectly in comparison to when I look on you tube/google video at guys who make sense to me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eV94jESb4E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubf27cH6Yqs&mode=related&search=


Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/04/07 12:42 PM)

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#356806 - 09/04/07 01:47 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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if you don't mind my asking, how long have you been studying IMA, Jude?

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#356807 - 09/04/07 02:02 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Quote:

if you don't mind my asking, how long have you been studying IMA, Jude?




I havent done any phsical study Ed. But I have no wish to study with a teacher who doesnt know themselves what is right or wrong and later have to undo wrong technique. I would like to study with some one that knows what they are doing from day one. Just to find any teacher of hsing i or bagau in the area I live in, in the Uk, is proving difficult. I have asked tai chi teachers and they will only teach the elderly the forms with seemingly no thought to combat, in fact they have refused to teach people like me.

I trained with a lau gar guy and forget it. Its not what I want.
I know nothing about I.M.A other than what I have seen on video and read about. What I do feel is when I watch guys like sifu rudy as per the video ( who I feel I would like to study with but he lives in New York) then I observe other teachers and read comments then I think there are a some bogus teachers. These I dont wish to study with.

Just a foot note. If anybody knows of teachers in the North of England, Doncaster or above then please let me know where they are.I would travel.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/04/07 02:19 PM)

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#356808 - 09/04/07 02:30 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I see. good luck.

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#356809 - 09/05/07 09:08 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:



J

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#356810 - 09/05/07 09:12 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:



An excellent question... maybe there were other "physical signs" that if we were told/shown what to look for ?

Jeff

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#356811 - 09/05/07 09:14 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:

Or "younger ones" with any ~metal parts~...

Jeff

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#356812 - 09/05/07 09:22 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ed:

What do you make of the now accepted usage of Accupuncture in the treatment of pain or other assorted diseases in Western Hospitals? It survived the double blind route and works sufficently such that its sanctioned...

Jeff

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#356813 - 09/05/07 09:25 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
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#356814 - 09/05/07 09:26 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:



Jeff

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#356815 - 09/05/07 09:29 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Harlan:

Ahhh, Mr. Morris's orignal thread re: Double Blind studies re: Eastern modalities/approaches...

Jeff

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#356816 - 09/05/07 09:37 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

<<if you're a little overwhelmed with the "explanation", there's a "kids section" on this subject...



Jeffy

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#356817 - 09/05/07 10:10 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

Apologies for not taking a better shot at your question.

I can make parts of my body very difficult for you to move by simple grabbing, twisting, turning? Some call that "chi"

I can "increase my power" (make it far more difficult to perform several kinds of techniques on me) using certain mental focus/imagry alone. Some call that "chi"

Proximity. I come into point blank range of someone, whom I have never met before, and get an incredible feeling; whether lust, fear, a feeling of their tangible power. That tangible feeling, that impression, some call "chi".

I have seen the "selected break" on ESPN and heard of it elsewhere several times. I would love to see it in person. If it exists some would call that chi...

In the martial context anything that would have a specific usage in a combat situation, would have obvious value. If I was harder to move around, or could keep my position against your attempts to move me... if I can use little effort and repel/ignore your attack... all would be wonderful technical abilities. Hopefully this will help get back on tract the discussion I think you might have hoped for in some respects anyway.

Jeff

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#356818 - 09/05/07 10:24 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Hello Wristtwister:

<<if you're a little overwhelmed with the "explanation", there's a "kids section" on this subject...


Jeffy




Hello Ronin. Pleased to meet you.

I have been observing hsing I applications on video from master Yang Fansheng and its seemingly brutal.Can I ask Where does chi fit in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yDgSyAokUY&mode=related&search=

How does the guy who started this thread know he has found chi?
An explanation of IMA, would be nice.
How would I start a thread on this topic or has it been already covered?

Thanks Jude.



I am slowly working out what the arts are and dredging through the back pages of the forum but asking for information seems to get no response.


Footnote.
I stand corrected you have answered some of the questions , thanks.


Edited by jude33 (09/05/07 10:31 AM)

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#356819 - 09/05/07 10:34 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Hello Ed:

What do you make of the now accepted usage of Accupuncture in the treatment of pain or other assorted diseases in Western Hospitals? It survived the double blind route and works sufficently such that its sanctioned...

Jeff




Hello ED

Yes could I ask the same question?



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#356820 - 09/05/07 10:37 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
harlan Offline
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Loc: Amherst, MA
Anyone else ever notice that most of these 'chi' threads are started by some drive-by poster?

Hey...beltlevel...it's been two weeks since your last post. Did you get anything out of this thread? Can we let it die now?

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#356821 - 09/05/07 10:51 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Hello Ed:

What do you make of the now accepted usage of Accupuncture in the treatment of pain or other assorted diseases in Western Hospitals? It survived the double blind route and works sufficently such that its sanctioned...

Jeff



Good question. Probably for the same reason there are also hospital chaplains and psychiatrists on staff. Although the alternative treatment can't be 'proven' to cure anything, it CAN be proven to 'do no harm'.
Which was found to be the case with acupuncture needles in 1996.

so I'm not sure it's as accurate to say that western medicine necessarily reguards this type of treatment as comperable to scientific method...they can only say "if something feels better and is deemed safe, then go for it."

once the needles and qualifications were regulated, acupuncture was deemed 'safe to do no harm'.

besides, it's popularity increases revenue for the hospitals while directing the flow of minor ailments as well as long-term chronic ailments, easing burden of doctors to treat the serious physical injuries.

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#356822 - 09/05/07 11:27 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Hello Ed:

What do you make of the now accepted usage of Accupuncture in the treatment of pain or other assorted diseases in Western Hospitals? It survived the double blind route and works sufficently such that its sanctioned...

Jeff



Good question. Probably for the same reason there are also hospital chaplains and psychiatrists on staff. Although the alternative treatment can't be 'proven' to cure anything, it CAN be proven to 'do no harm'.
Which was found to be the case with acupuncture needles in 1996.

so I'm not sure it's as accurate to say that western medicine necessarily reguards this type of treatment as comperable to scientific method...they can only say "if something feels better and is deemed safe, then go for it."

once the needles and qualifications were regulated, acupuncture was deemed 'safe to do no harm'.

besides, it's popularity increases revenue for the hospitals while directing the flow of minor ailments as well as long-term chronic ailments, easing burden of doctors to treat the serious physical injuries.






http://www.felixmann.co.uk/Scientific_Acupunture.pdf


I am not to sure if there is a kids version of this article, should it seem complicated to anybody , but I think it gives a good argument in practical terms and explains in some ways how accupuncture works in a somewhat medical manner.

He states meridans etc dont exist but accupuncture does work amd seemingly proves it?
Jude

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#356823 - 10/04/07 08:20 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
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Loc: South Carolina
While I was over at the physical therapist's having my hip worked on today, I read an article in the Arthritis Foundation newsletter about acupuncture.

Their explanation was that the meridians do exist, but as a system of connective tissue that threads throughout the body roughly following the autonomic nervous system. The technique of acupuncture is done with fine needles, and their impact is to both stimulate the nerves, and to cause a "mini-trauma" at the site of the penetration which the body's healing defenses attack.

The thrust of the article was that the technique of acupuncture worked for relieving arthritis pain and inflammation by using the body's own healing system. "Balancing chi" is a method of having the body's own systems heal irritations and arthritic joint areas without excessively dangerous medicines which have numerous side effects.

Apparently, Western medicine is beginning to understand some of the methods of TCM and have developed "understandable" explanations for why and how it works.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356824 - 10/04/07 11:24 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I have no doubt people feel better for a while after treatment.

The problem I have is with the results of the controlled tests. There are several, but here is a typical one:
Quote:

A controlled trial of the theory of acupuncture in musculoskeletal pain.Godfrey CM, Morgan P.
We carried out a randomized trail compraing acupuncture done is theoretically correct [appropriate] and incorrect [inappropirate] locations for chronic musculoskeletal pains in various sites. Throughout the trial, neither the patient, nor the assessor, nor the acupuncturist, knew if the site of the acupuncture was appropriate to the patient's symptoms according to acupuncture theory. Although 60% had reduced pain after three treatments, there was no significant difference between the treatments. Our findings, while not disproving the value of acupuncture, do not support the theory that certain specific points must be needled to relieve specific areas of pain.




while not disproving anything, it does point to something else that may be going on, other than acupuncture's effect on certain specific points along a conceptual pathway. yet results like these, believers would categorize as 'inconclusive'....which is technically true, since there was no difference in results one way or the other, but it's a bit of a misnomer.


This is just one study. similar studies had similar results. The only studies I have seen which contradict these findings are by groups with invested interest in the study's outcome....of which studies, tend to be non-blinded tests.


to be fair, an equal argument could be that perhaps the MD's doing the studies also 'cooked' the tests and/or results somehow, for THEIR own agenda. fair point. I would like to see a joint and agreed upon study with representives from each side observing the tests. I haven't heard of any such joint tests.


that aside, similar tests have been done with various faith healing with familiar results. The control being: one group is serviced by a non-believer, the other group is serviced by a believer. both groups are told the person they are being serviced by are legitimate people of their same faith to 'heal' their pain.
Both groups reported slight improvement in their pain reduction...but the difference between the groups was negligible.

positive thinking, visualization, wanting to get well, hope, faith, motivation, feeling cared for/loved, etc ...all of these things can improve what is being focused on - but if that improvement is independant of the specific treatment, then that specific treatment cannot be the credited cause.

it's perhaps a cold way of thinking about it, since if it helps, it helps - period. end of discussion. but if we REALLY want to understand whats going on, we have to ask why and test it without bias.

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#356825 - 10/04/07 11:33 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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btw, I think one way the alternative wellness centers can/have actually helped in a real way, is by pointing out that if a patient is cared for mentally, emotionally and socially - it can add to the effectiveness of physical cures by providing the Human element of 'bedside mannor' which Western MD's tend to lack. One thing that is striking and impressive in alternative wellness centers is the catering to the person, perhaps even pampering....who wouldn't feel better after being 'treated well'.


looking at it in the extreme...
'will to live'...what is that? can't look at it under a microscope. I don't need to give examples of it, it's commonly and intuitively understood that it is very real. flip that around and equally witnessed is the notion of an instilled 'will to die'.

there is no doubt psychological states of mind cause very real physiological effects. They should not be dismissed or misunderstood in exchange for beliefs of anyone's choice.



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#356826 - 10/05/07 12:03 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

Their explanation was that the meridians do exist, but as a system of connective tissue that threads throughout the body roughly following the autonomic nervous system.


Well, well, well... connective tissues, fascia, myofascia, and associated structures...

Here's an interesting tidbit for those who might be interested. Many acupuncturists have described the sensation of the needle being "grabbed" (by the qi) at the site when the needle has been inserted correctly. TCM researchers have for some time now, identified the connective tissue as having a major functional role in the concept of qi, and have traditionally referred to the properties of the connective tissue as "the qi". Interestingly enough, Rolf and Alexander had different takes on the same things.

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#356827 - 10/05/07 07:16 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Maybe the most interesting aspect of the meridians is the "routing" of them throughout the body. While I have trouble keeping them straight these days, I finally understand that they are "routed" through the body along the connective tissue of the colon and bowel, which loop, fold, and reverse all over the body, which is why they have such odd shapes and points where they "surface". Having been established long before X-ray machines were even thought of, I find it amazing that TCM doctors were able to establish the "points" so accurately.

If you follow the autonomic nervous system and the circulatory systems of the body, you have most of the points of the meridians defined. Those that are not, are usually part of the lymphatic system, and close to the surface. Where the "art" of acupuncture came in, was in the ability to put the needles in exactly the right depth (as well as the right place).

Now the question arises about dim mak techniques... if you can "needle" the points and cause them to heal, can you not damage those same points and cause harm? The skeptics say no, but "if" acupuncture works as is becoming medically accepted, how can the reverse not also be true?

I once explained on the boards that dim mak techniques were like "unopened e-mails" in the body, and as the body's systems healed the damage, blood clots or nerve damage caused system shutdowns or organ damage as they released their "information" to the nervous and circulatory systems... which was the idea behind someone being killed weeks later from a strike to a vital point.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#356828 - 10/06/07 01:31 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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not to go off on a tangent, but thats an intersting point about depth and location of the needles....what happens when they have to perform accupuncture on a really fat guy with 3 necks and 2 back flaps? lol
sorry.


btw, 2 reasons why acupuncture is now accepted, not AS western practice, but it's accepted as doing no harm. The reason is because the needles are regulated as medical instruments. If preists used needles to perform exorcisms, and those needles were regulated, then it would be said that exorcisms are 'accepted' as well. 2nd reason: since the needles are regulated and accupuncture is deemed as doing no harm, most health insurance companies will cover it....just like they cover hypnotism to quit smoking. Since insurance covers it, there is direct and indirect money to be made by any hospital/doctor sponsoring and/or referring anything that is covered.

most MD's that I've talked to have a 'sure why not' approach when officially asked about alternative therepies. they even recommend people to places in the area. hospitals have brocures and guides to alternative health, some have centers built right into the hospital. why wouldn't they. 'sure why not'.

however, when MD friends confide in private over the dinner table, you get a reason behind that 'sure why not' approach to acceptance of alternative and wellness services. They don't deny the benefit of placebo effect...it's the psudoscience used to describe their causes, which create quite a majority of non-acceptance. but if studies show no adverse effects with placebo gain - 'sure why not'. MD's have no interest in debating an individual's beliefs.


if you are into training to kill with one strike by pinpointing where their chi would be disrupted, sure why not...whatever keeps the students coming in.


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#356829 - 10/06/07 01:16 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
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Interesting. I read an article on CNN's online site that cited a German study that showed fake accupuncture works almost as well as real accupuncture. Placebo effect?
Don't know, and it is only one study, but...

Here's the link to a Newspaper article that talks about the same study.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Back-Pain-Acupuncture.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

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#356830 - 10/27/07 07:01 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Nothing. Chi does not exist.

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#356831 - 11/26/07 07:03 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Or maybe they actually work for whatever reason and have a definite effect. Why not? It could happen.
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#356832 - 11/29/07 04:48 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Nothing. There is no such thing as chi.

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#356833 - 11/29/07 06:23 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Gavin Offline
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#356834 - 11/30/07 01:51 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Quote:

Nothing. There is no such thing as chi.




There is no such thing as YOU! Or is that there is no such thing as me? Just it? Or is? Or being? I am confused.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#356835 - 11/30/07 04:44 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
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Almost forgot:
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#356836 - 12/08/07 04:35 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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You sound confused.

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#356837 - 12/09/07 06:57 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Nothing. There is no such thing as chi.




Hi

Just to re open a can of worms.

Chi as described to the extremes of some might be none believable. That might be for pure marketing purposes.

Chi = energy .


The stuff I am reading and studying on the internal energy(s) in some arts makes sense.

The ability to have a calm mind during a confrontation would make sense.

What is termed as the adrenalin dump caused by the complexed "information affecting the endocrine system" would be removed therefore a person would have a longer period of energy to hand.

Using the earths energy also makes sense.
A judo throw taking a person beyond their point of balance is a prime example.

Gravity = energy

Jude

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#356838 - 12/09/07 11:54 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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If you understand chi as a metaphor, that is fine. However, many people believe it is an actually existing physical force, like radiation or electromagnetism. It isn't, and those who train as if it is are deluding themselves.

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#356839 - 12/10/07 09:18 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Flyboy2002:

Forgive me I cannot resist your ~challenge~. Though I too am uncomfortable with the chi idea, solely because I have no cultural context for it. Were I of/from a culture where chi/ki/ was a daily idea, this would not be a problem for either of us I suspect?

Lets get to the heart of the issue. What/how do you classify zero variation externally, the literal carbon copy
doing a move/movements and producing tangibly, (ie radically) melo-dramatically more powerful physical results??? ie One person doing the same externalized movements yet attaining radically different results because of something they are doing mentally, or using imagery, with no externalized difference?

What/how do you classify a different mental focus? Example instead of concentrating on the situation/technique at hand, you strongly concentrate on the images, components, necessities of cooking a 5 course dinner and only that, or the mechanics of flying an airplace instead of the physical situation before you. If I concentrate, (igonore the physical in front of me) and focusing instead on an irrelevent situation... we get very different degree of power. Now instead I now focus solely on the assorted images to make a limb/joint more powerful...

What would you call that result prey tell?

Jeff

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#356840 - 12/10/07 09:25 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Jude:

Being a ~skeptic~ defined as being a disbeliever of commonly held views, a seeker of knowledge... I understand many folks discomfort as well.

If I can be shown a method, an approach which in spite of my disbelief/discomfort gives me more power with no externalized difference yet does give more power

I can easily trade-up and be convinced

Jeff

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#356841 - 12/10/07 09:29 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: beltlevel]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Beltlevel:

What about actively generating heat in my limbs?

What about reducing my resperation by half (or more)?

What about inducing alpha brain waves, etc.?

Are these issues also "chi" by-products?

Jeff

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#356842 - 12/10/07 09:51 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

If you understand chi as a metaphor, that is fine. However, many people believe it is an actually existing physical force, like radiation or electromagnetism. It isn't, and those who train as if it is are deluding themselves.




I am afraid I am just a mere simple homo-sapian (although some where there must be homo-erectus gene's)

Is chi energy? How complexed is the human brain? How complexed is the endocrine system? Then who am I to say what does and doesnt exist.

Radiation.
Ionisation of the sodium atom is one of the proccesses of the brain signalling/ adding to the molocule(s) make up that causes the muscles to move.
Is ionisation termed as radiation?

Is chi an energy flow brought about by the human brain and body functioning in a certain way other than they normaly do.
Did warriors of old condition their minds to except death?
Therefore losing the fear of death?

Does no fear mean no adrenalin dump? Does weigth training /getting stronger mean that can cross over to combat striking skills?
Only if the brain is re-trained in those movements. Reprogrammed?.
What is this re programming?

Is chi the energy brought about by some of these factors?

Says Jude stepping down from his soapbax and putting the kettle on.
2 sugars in your tea?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/10/07 10:01 AM)

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#356843 - 12/10/07 10:10 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Flyboy2002:

Forgive me I cannot resist your ~challenge~. Though I too am uncomfortable with the chi idea, solely because I have no cultural context for it. Were I of/from a culture where chi/ki/ was a daily idea, this would not be a problem for either of us I suspect?

Lets get to the heart of the issue. What/how do you classify zero variation externally, the literal carbon copy
doing a move/movements and producing tangibly, (ie radically) melo-dramatically more powerful physical results??? ie One person doing the same externalized movements yet attaining radically different results because of something they are doing mentally, or using imagery, with no externalized difference?

What/how do you classify a different mental focus? Example instead of concentrating on the situation/technique at hand, you strongly concentrate on the images, components, necessities of cooking a 5 course dinner and only that, or the mechanics of flying an airplace instead of the physical situation before you. If I concentrate, (igonore the physical in front of me) and focusing instead on an irrelevent situation... we get very different degree of power. Now instead I now focus solely on the assorted images to make a limb/joint more powerful...

What would you call that result prey tell?

Jeff




I am looking at the same thing myself.
The thing is it would mean changing the homo-sapians
in built response.
Changing the sub consciouse mind.
Is it possable?
I have to be carefull here but looking at some martial arts coming from some countries. They look like rips offs of existing techniques. Bit like where most copying of goods took place.

Jude.

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#356844 - 12/10/07 07:45 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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"Though I too am uncomfortable with the chi idea, solely because I have no cultural context for it. Were I of/from a culture where chi/ki/ was a daily idea, this would not be a problem for either of us I suspect?"

Probably not. However, if we were both Scandanavians living at the time of the Vikings, our shared "cultural context" would have us believing in Wotan and Thor. That would not make them real.

"What/how do you classify zero variation externally, the literal carbon copy
doing a move/movements and producing tangibly, (ie radically) melo-dramatically more powerful physical results??? ie One person doing the same externalized movements yet attaining radically different results because of something they are doing mentally, or using imagery, with no externalized difference?"

I would deny that it had ever happened or was even possible. I would also point out every attempt to document such phenomena in a controlled setting had failed.

"What/how do you classify a different mental focus? Example instead of concentrating on the situation/technique at hand, you strongly concentrate on the images, components, necessities of cooking a 5 course dinner and only that, or the mechanics of flying an airplace instead of the physical situation before you. If I concentrate, (igonore the physical in front of me) and focusing instead on an irrelevent situation... we get very different degree of power. Now instead I now focus solely on the assorted images to make a limb/joint more powerful...
What would you call that result prey tell?"

I would first ask you what you meant by a "different degree of power?" Do you mean more power, less power? And how do you know? Did you measuure the power in some way or just "feel" it?

To be honest, you are being rather obscure here. I am not sure I undertsand what you are trying to describe exactly.

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#356845 - 12/10/07 08:04 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:





Probably not. However, if we were both Scandanavians living at the time of the Vikings, our shared "cultural context" would have us believing in Wotan and Thor. That would not make them real.





If the scandanavian women at that time did then I would
agree with them. Wouldnt realy be listening to what they said just nodding and looking like I agree.
Who would care if they were real?
I would gladly share the scandanavian womens cultural context.

I presume your answer was to Ronin?



Jude

Minus soapbox

Blue eyes etc etc.


Edited by jude33 (12/10/07 08:06 PM)

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#356846 - 12/11/07 01:28 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Well, I am very concerned about what is and is not real. Sorry.

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#356847 - 12/11/07 02:31 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Why be so concerned about something that doesn't exist? Just as beauty is in the eye of the beerholder, so are the things we perceive to be true. Thor did, does and will probably continue to exist for many people. Just as God does, just as Allah does...and to be fair just as chi does to some. The point people miss in this whole argument, and one that Jude is starting to stumble upon, is that whether or not the phenomena exists or not is irrelevant, the physiological and neurological manifestations that produced as a result of a certain method of engaging the body and mind through many abstract thought processes is undeniable. The use of hypnosis and NLP in enhancing sports performance is becoming common practice in the modern trainers arsenal, the Chinese have been doing that for 100's of years.

If chi doesn't exist in your *own* personal interpretation of the universe why do you keep trolling through this section of the forum? As I said before, most of the people I see stressed and obsessed with the existence of Chi are those that don't believe in it! They make it have far more substance in there own minds that I have seen anyone who truly understand the simple observational model ever has! Silly really!
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#356848 - 12/11/07 03:17 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
trevek Offline
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Funnily enough, Scandinavian tradition has a philosophy similar to chi, called Oond.
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#356849 - 12/11/07 04:24 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Stormdragon Offline
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Quote:

Why be so concerned about something that doesn't exist? Just as beauty is in the eye of the beerholder, so are the things we perceive to be true. Thor did, does and will probably continue to exist for many people. Just as God does, just as Allah does...and to be fair just as chi does to some. The point people miss in this whole argument, and one that Jude is starting to stumble upon, is that whether or not the phenomena exists or not is irrelevant, the physiological and neurological manifestations that produced as a result of a certain method of engaging the body and mind through many abstract thought processes is undeniable. The use of hypnosis and NLP in enhancing sports performance is becoming common practice in the modern trainers arsenal, the Chinese have been doing that for 100's of years.

If chi doesn't exist in your *own* personal interpretation of the universe why do you keep trolling through this section of the forum? As I said before, most of the people I see stressed and obsessed with the existence of Chi are those that don't believe in it! They make it have far more substance in there own minds that I have seen anyone who truly understand the simple observational model ever has! Silly really!





If people are killing/murdering others because of their false/illogical beleifs then I think it matters and something must be done about it (I'm talking about extremist religions or lifestyles that allow such behavior such as those of terrorists-sorry to take things to well, the extreme but that is where reality tends to be found).
Is it right to oppress others because of beliefs you have that may or may not be true (and often most likely aren't) when you don't know for sure? I think in those cases something must be done. When your hurting innocents because of your beliefs than I think those beliefs at that point need to be dealt with appropriately. In this case, say a gorup is teaching regular people that they can become bullet proof due to chi/iron shirt training. And then they go try it and die. Should we allow that or allow the potential for that due to false beliefs? I think if a set of beliefs are putting people in danger then they need to be extinguished and addressed immediately. I agree with Fileboy that what is REAL (I.E what affects us directly) matters. Forget political correctness.
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#356850 - 12/11/07 05:54 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
Gavin Offline
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You know sometimes there really are compelling examples that make you really think, "You know, if Darwin was here, right here, right now...perhaps he'd reconsider his theory of natural selection!"
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#356851 - 12/12/07 03:52 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Stormdragon Offline
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Maybe his ideas weren't true. Who knows. But must you react to valid points with sarcasm? Other people (even younger ones every once i na blue moon) might know a thing or two.
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#356852 - 12/12/07 09:11 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Maybe his ideas weren't true. Who knows. But must you react to valid points with sarcasm? Other people (even younger ones every once i na blue moon) might know a thing or two.




Storm. Can I suggest you read my input to beggin with?
As Gavin stated I seem some how to be stumbling on to things.

Ionisation of a sodium atom? It cant be seen? Can It be proven? If so how? Yet you are meant to believe it?

What causes the adrenalin dump?
Have a read and see if you can answer the questions I put?

Explain the brains function. Explain night mares and the physical response?
What is the endocrine system?

If you dont know then a person cant begin to ponder what IMA's are trying to achieve.

My understanding of the term chi is that to many Westerners make more of a big deal of the term "Chi" than actualy trying to apply the teachings to reach a specific goal.

Which I think is self control. Applying a relaxed mind/ thought process to a physical act. Internal.


Jude

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#356853 - 12/12/07 05:53 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Gavin,

It sounds like you are saying objective reality does not exist at all and therefor we can all believe whatever we please. That is just not true. Some things are a matter of perception. We can argue whether a brick wall is too high or too thick, whether it needs to be here or there, whether it is beautiful or ugly. But we cannot deny it exists. If you doubt this, run into one head first some day.

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#356854 - 12/12/07 06:52 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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If chi is energy and energy can flow different or better in a given situation subject to that person changing their mind set then that has to be a good thing.

A person having night mares sometimes causes that person to have the physical symptons as though it were real.
Why?
Because the human mind cant seperate thought from real visual occurences.
If a human could train their mind to react different to both then in some cases energy would be there for a longer period of time.
Such as the adrenalin dump not using up all the energy at a given moment.
Perhaps that is what is refered to as chi?
IMA's speak of certain exercises to keep the bodies internal organs healthy?
If they do or not I dont know.
Sinking of the chi to the naval.
Could that be considered as lowering the body weight?
Putting more weight in to the legs?
Not lowering the weigth when being swept means a person is swept

The mind ponders

I think the whole knowledge of atoms is theory. Cant be physicaly proven. So do they exist in the form as stated by scientists or not?
Even they argue.


Jude

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#356855 - 12/12/07 09:38 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Albert Einstein himself was against the theories of quantum mechanics, and he, one of the greatest scientific mind of the 20th Century, was eventually proven wrong. We lesser mortals had better be more humble.
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#356856 - 12/13/07 01:58 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Albert Einstein himself was against the theories of quantum mechanics, and he, one of the greatest scientific mind of the 20th Century, was eventually proven wrong. We lesser mortals had better be more humble.




I would guess he wasnt proven wrong. It would have to be a guess as his work was so complicated.
More than likely some one thought up a different hypothesis and others like sheep agreed. In this day and age atomic particles cant be physicaly proven nor can the speed of light. Or that light consists of photons or even that they exist as stated. So it is a guess.
He isnt around anymore to publish books. Others are so change the theory and they earn money.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/13/07 02:01 AM)

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#356857 - 12/13/07 02:00 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Gavin Offline
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Quote:

If you doubt this, run into one head first some day.




Funny that's exactly what discussing this subject feels like sometimes! It doesn't exist...
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#356858 - 12/13/07 02:09 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Art thou going to discuss chi and what it is? how is it implemented? or art thou going to join in and compete on ambigouse sentences.

Back to the topic.

Has anybody on the thread reached the state of mind that it is relaxed during a confrontation?
They can control their own endocrine system in such an event?


Morning Gavin. Should imagine the kettle is on.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/13/07 02:13 AM)

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#356859 - 12/13/07 02:48 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Stormdragon Offline
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I'm a psychology major and I've had multiple courses in Human Anatomy and physiology so I'm pretty squared away with that for the most part, especially the brain which is where I'm most knowledgable. The endocrine system and Adrenaline processes I'm slightly sketchy with but I'm working on it.
I have very little knowledge of Atomic and Molecular processes though.
How would you control the endocrine system when it's completely controlled by smooth muscle? I mean adrenaline is one thing but the endocrine system in it's entirety, even your pulse or heart beat is almost impossible to control without unreasonable time and effort.
How oculd regular people in 1st world societies manage that?


Edited by Stormdragon (12/13/07 03:08 AM)
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#356860 - 12/13/07 04:08 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Gavin Offline
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Quote:

d reached the state of mind that it is relaxed during a confrontation?
They can control their own endocrine system in such an event?





I've had a few instances when I was working the Door where in a potentially stressful situation I was able to remain calm. Unfortunately had an incident very recently that also achieved the same state.

Although you don't have control of involuntary systems, you do have the ability to use the voluntary systems to change the physiological state of the internal environment of the body...which has a knock on affect on the rest of the body. Affecting the body on a organ level will affect the whole gameshow, down through the cellular level down to the chemical level. And it will also affect stuff up through to the organism level. By changing the rate the respiratory system is working will have a direct affect on the cardiovascular. Anyone ever told you to "Take a deep breath!"? There is a saying, "The breath is the gateway between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems!".

Trouble is Jude, and why I usually now result to one liners so much, is that people aren't really interested in discussing things. They just skip through your posts to troll for points to pick apart. It's far easier to just say "Yep, Chi doesn't exist!" coz most people don't actually know what it is they are saying doesn't exist. Very few people actually even have a true definition of what they think Chi is in their minds. They think Chi is the mystical energy that use to knock people out from 10 miles away or reheat take aways with...so in this interpretation of the concept they are totally right...chi doesn't exist. Most are too lazy, narrow minded and ignorant to even begin to open up to the possibility that there might be a bit more to it than that. Something beyond using google, something beyond idiotic hippies on acid....so I just stick with them at their level of understanding of the concept, and at that level Chi/Qi/Prana/Ki and the tooth fairy most definitely don't exist...so they are right....but they are still obsessed with the topic. A lot of people on this forum have far more invested in Chi than I ever will.
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#356861 - 12/13/07 05:18 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
Bossman Offline
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... or you could approach it from the view that 'chi' is the key idea in a practitioners 'users manual' of how to synergise mind, breath and body in a way that gets the optimum use of body and mind for martial arts. If you tried to explain it scientifically (which in theory, you'd eventually be able to), you'd never get around to training!
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#356862 - 12/13/07 05:21 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Bossman]
Gavin Offline
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Just wanted to highlight a point that people will miss Boss:

Quote:

... or you could approach it from the view that 'chi' is the key IDEA in a practitioners 'users manual' of how to synergise mind, breath and body in a way that gets the optimum use of body and mind for martial arts. If you tried to explain it scientifically (which in theory, you'd eventually be able to), you'd never get around to training!


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#356863 - 12/13/07 05:29 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:



How would you control the endocrine system when it's completely controlled by smooth muscle? I mean adrenaline is one thing but the endocrine system in it's entirety, even your pulse or heart beat is almost impossible to control without unreasonable time and effort.
How oculd regular people in 1st world societies manage that?




Did I say control the endocrine? If I did then that is my fault for not being specific when I ponder things.

My thoughts.
Information from the senses reaches the brain.
If the information is the type that stimulates fear the brain re-acts by hormone production ( adrenalin etc) which in turn begins to increase sugar levels etc etc.

After the adrenalin dump the person has nothing left energy wise.

If a person can keep a relaxed/controlled mind then there will be no fear response there fore no adrenalin dump

That I think is one of the goals of IMA's.
To get a relaxed mind.
How many people can control their own thought process?

Jude

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#356864 - 12/13/07 05:35 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
jude33 Offline
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Well they might think like that.
I can see the other side. A person being able to control their own mind would be a benefit/start.

Jude

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#356865 - 12/13/07 05:40 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Gavin Offline
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#356866 - 12/13/07 03:33 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Jude:

This kind of focus cannot, must never ignore the physical structure of any move/movement. Perhaps others with an intact & complete systemic IMA response could well say "...you can ignore the physical components...", but thus far I find zero evidence. The mental techniques have steps, a precise & particular order just like the physical, no difference in that respect.

My take being if I cannot explain to you "the how" of such material without all the goofy-hideous cyclical references, the silly jargin, then I do not understand it well enough to be teaching it.


Jeff

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#356867 - 12/13/07 03:55 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Flyboy2002:

I have never been accused of being obscure before!?! Unclear at times but never obscure. Let me try a different approach... perhaps that will help?

Let me try it this way, I tell you a technique you have not done before. It involves very specific mental focus/image you are to use. Use a physical technique, I want to see the power you have doing it? Now add the mental technique I told you.

If, if that gives you more power or better yet very consistantly so ... How would you classify that improvement of power to your technique? Nothing different physically in how you did it... You added a particular mental concentration, a mental technique and recieved a tangibly different result in power doing so according to your partner.

Jeff

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#356868 - 12/13/07 04:04 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Jude33:

If I was a native to that culture, I would have no issue. As a visitor, I would be polite and seek explaination for a very long time. My wife however might object to my spending too long though

Jeff

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#356869 - 12/13/07 04:09 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Flyboy2002:

I too have skepticism and also concerns. In spite of my disbelief several techniques have worked quite nicely despite my doubt. I can be convinced, learn new things.

Jeff

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#356870 - 12/13/07 07:56 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
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Hi Ronin. Hows you?

My brain is in deep contemplation mode. Not to much coming out of it at the moment other than trying to visualise the techniques I am physicaly working on before I do them.
So will answer your response fairly soon.

Jude

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#356871 - 12/14/07 05:41 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Stormdragon Offline
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You know kinetic energy and it's control (which comes largely through the control of your center of gravity as well as the connection between axial and proximal body parts/limbs) could be considered chi or at least a part of chi and would be why the tan tien is ocnsidered the origin point. Obviously no actually energy (at leaqstn ot from evidence) is generated there but it is a major fulcrum and controls balance and coordination thus the flow of kinetic energy or kinetic linking.
Tell me I contributed SOMETHING!


Edited by Stormdragon (12/14/07 05:42 PM)
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#356872 - 12/15/07 09:57 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
fileboy2002 Offline
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While the laws of quauntum mechanics are deeply mysterious, their effects are calculable to an astounding degree of accuracy. The same cannot be said for ki.

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#356873 - 12/15/07 11:29 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

While the laws of quauntum mechanics are deeply mysterious, their effects are calculable to an astounding degree of accuracy. The same cannot be said for ki.




Looks like its back to the same argument.
I should imagine calculable is the correct term. I believe most of it cant be physicaly proven so ki and quantum physics have something in commen.

Lets look at worry. It is a learned process not a trait. It effects humans in a realy bad way. It makes them ill. It cant be measured.

Lets look at the ki practioners way of dealing with it.
Looks to me like they should be able to cure it.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/15/07 11:36 PM)

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#356874 - 12/16/07 03:21 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
Gavin Offline
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*Sigh*

You really do just read the parts you want to don't you?

Let's flip this round a little bit so we can stop going round in stupid circles...what exactly do you think Chi is? Could you define what it is you are so staunchly sure doesn't exist. What don't you think exists and what do you believe it actually is supposed to do? Let's make sure we all on the right page before you do another driveby "Chi doesn't exist!"

Funny as well that you mention quantum mechanics. I've only had the pleasure of speaking to one person who really had a grasp on quantum mechanics, a physics and advanced mathematics student and they thought Chi was a wonderful model of observation of the nature of reality for the lay person.
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#356875 - 12/16/07 07:04 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Tell me I contributed SOMETHING!




Yep , you did. So to the methods IMA's use?

Walking in bagau
Slow movements in Tai Chi
Correct body alignment gives more energy?
Meditation.

Heres one.
Train untill totaly knackered.
Then use the imagination to think of things that make you feel good or use pictures. I use music.
So now you feel good and are knackered.
Is there any more energy left to do that bit more?

I think there will be.
So using the mind gives extra energy.


Jude

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#356876 - 12/17/07 01:54 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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No.The validity of quantum mechanics can be proven--has been proven. Ki has not.

And while "worry" itself cannot be measured, the physiological effects of stress--e.g. increased blood pressure, heart rate, etc--can be. This is not true of ki.

The fact is every attempt to scientifically demonstrate ki has failed. The only reason belief in ki persists is becasue some people desperately WANT to believe in it.

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#356877 - 12/17/07 05:00 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

No.The validity of quantum mechanics can be proven--has been proven. Ki has not.




How has the all of the validity of quantum mechanics been proven?
By maths?

Quote:


And while "worry" itself cannot be measured, the physiological effects of stress--e.g. increased blood pressure, heart rate, etc--can be. This is not true of ki.




That wasnt the point I was making. Do people with a relaxed mind worry? If a person is prone to worry and that person can be given methods to stop by a person who believes in ki
was the point I was making. Controlling a persons own mind
Doesnt means to say they have to believe in it to be cured.
From my readings IMA's work on such a thing as a relaxed mind that can be used during conflict.
Have you read what the purpose of IMA'S are?

Quote:


The fact is every attempt to scientifically demonstrate ki has failed. The only reason belief in ki persists is becasue some people desperately WANT to believe in it.





That applies to a mulitude of things. Some would bring a greater argument from a larger population of the world. So does that apply to those as well?


If the benefits can be gained from following that course of study does it matter if it can be proven or not?

Jude

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#356878 - 12/17/07 06:39 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Gavin Offline
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Jude, you're wasting your time mate.
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#356879 - 12/17/07 10:52 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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If you want a god exposition of quantum theory, any number of decent popular books are available. Start with McMahon's Quantum Mechanics Demystified.

As for the rest, I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are trying to say. I would guess you are either a non-native English speaker (which is certainly no crime) or are being deliberately obtuse (which is).

And Gavin, I am the one trying to be rational here.

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#356880 - 12/17/07 10:57 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

...they thought Chi was a wonderful model of observation of the nature of reality for the lay person.


Best I've heard so far in this thread.

I don't know how many times I've said this in the past, but I'll say it again.

Qi is an umbrella term used to describe a range of natural phenomena that the ancients had no means of explanation or quantitative measurement given their level of technology. Like Bossman said, treat it like an "idea" - a theoretical concept, a convenient means to "explain" real world observations without the scientific mumbo-jumbo, a hypothetical construct... nothing more.

If you think Qi is some primordial, mystical energy or life force strong enough to knock someone over from 3 feet away... forget about it. Ain't gunna happen. Don't waste your time chasing the Qi dragon...

You'd be better off actually doing some training and learning about bio-mechanics and bio-feedback. (I)MA... it's a "feeling" thing... not a thinking thing.

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#356881 - 12/17/07 11:01 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Gavin]
fileboy2002 Offline
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No, I don't just read the parts I want. But if I am engaged in a discussion with one person--in this case, Jude33--I sometimes miss comments from the peanut gallery.

By "chi" I am talking about the alleged internal energy that allows martial artist (and others) to transcend normal phyiscal laws and limitations.

There is a popular saying in science: "Anyone who says they understand quantum theory doesn't understand quantum theory." Thats aid, people claiming there are parallels between modern physics and Eastern mysticism is nothing new; New Age guru/charlatan Deepak Chopra has attarcted millions of followers (and their dollars) peddling this sort of snake oil.

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#356882 - 12/18/07 07:17 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

As for the rest, I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are trying to say. I would guess you are either a non-native English speaker (which is certainly no crime) or are being deliberately obtuse (which is).




Hope this helps.
Quote:

Morning Gavin. Should imagine the kettle is on.




Means = Good morning Gavin. I should imagine you are making coffee or tea.
In the UK we have a thing called a kettle.
It boils water. The water is poured in to a cup. The cup could have coffee or a tea bag in it.

I presume you know what a tea bag is?

Tea! not chi! or yi!

Quote:

Art thou going to discuss chi and what it is? how is it implemented? or art thou going to join in and compete on ambigouse sentences.




Art,thou,thine,thy is old English.

pluperfect? do you think?

Are you Yours

Quote:

As for the rest, I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are trying to say. I would guess you are either a non-native English speaker (which is certainly no crime) or are being deliberately obtuse (which is).




Copy and post the parts that you cant figure out and I will explain.

Please inform me as to if you know what this is.

"homeostatic balance in biological regulations"

Does it exist and what exactly is it?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/18/07 08:00 AM)

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#356883 - 12/18/07 08:25 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

No.The validity of quantum mechanics can be proven--has been proven. Ki has not.

And while "worry" itself cannot be measured, the physiological effects of stress--e.g. increased blood pressure, heart rate, etc--can be. This is not true of ki.

The fact is every attempt to scientifically demonstrate ki has failed.




Which term/idea for ki was diss-proven. One of the silly modern new age version?


Fa Jing Means ‘emitting Jing’. Jing is defined as the combination of physical strength, qi, and yi in a martial technique

Then we are back to the worry concept. The use of pure physical strength/ exercise doesnt give a person the tools to deal with things such as worry. Will just physical training give the additional energy that training the other aspects might?

Jude

I hope you follow.

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#356884 - 12/18/07 12:07 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Fisherman Offline
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Quote:


Walking in bagau
Slow movements in Tai Chi
Correct body alignment gives more energy?





Possibly. I like to think of it more as we expend less energy because we move in a more efficient manner therefore we have more energy to expend.
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Chris Haynes

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#356885 - 12/18/07 06:40 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Simplistically speaking, it's about using your whole being in a coordinated fashion - and I don't necessarily mean just a coordination of body, heart (xin), mind-will/intent (yi).

So, is it more efficient to use your "whole body" to lift, say, a coffee cup? Wouldn't it be far more efficient to do so using isolated muscle?

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#356886 - 12/18/07 08:12 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: eyrie]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

So, is it more efficient to use your "whole body" to lift, say, a coffee cup? Wouldn't it be far more efficient to do so using isolated muscle?




I don't think so. I have a cup of hot tea in front of me right now. I just lifted it with my arm alone and I feel more exertion than I do when I use my structure to lift and then support the cup.
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Chris Haynes

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#356887 - 12/19/07 07:11 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
The existence of ki has to be proven, not disproven. Nothing can be definatively disproven. I cannot, for example, disprove that there are a dozen invisible fairies dancing above the hood of my car right now. But that does not mean I should believe in them.

Talking about the "silly New Age" version of ki is redudent; ki is, by nature, a silly New Age idea.

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#356888 - 12/19/07 10:25 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

Quote:

The existence of ki has to be proven, not disproven. Nothing can be definatively disproven. I cannot, for example, disprove that there are a dozen invisible fairies dancing above the hood of my car right now. But that does not mean I should believe in them.

Talking about the "silly New Age" version of ki is redudent; ki is, by nature, a silly New Age idea.




Hi

My student thoughts.

The concept of Ki isnt a new age idea. It has been around since year dot. Seems like you havent researched your argument.

Do you know how many different meanings there are for ki?
It would seem the meaning of ki that you are basing this argument on isnt the one I am basing the argument on.
This is the problem here. I think you have this one set idea. I did ask a question which you havent answered or attempted to answer. Would you care to answer it.



please inform me as to if you know what this is.

"homeostatic balance in biological regulations"

Does it exist and what exactly is it?




If your definition and attempts to understand the term ki are as not being a descriptive word for the additional energy released in the human body brought about by a persons own self control then you seemingly are choosing to read the fairy tales version. Thus your comparison to fairys on the hood of your car.

You seem to be sadly following/ attempting to dissprove the beliefs of people who choose to write fairy tales and use the term ki to sell a product.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (12/19/07 10:42 PM)

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#356889 - 12/19/07 10:26 PM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Proving whether ki exists as a physical entity is akin to proving whether God [or insert preferred religious icon/diety] exists. It's pointless.

Ki is NOT a physical entity - it is a theoretical concept, a mental construct, a conceptual model, an abstraction...

Focusing on what ki is, and what you can do with it etc. is like looking at fingers pointing at the moon... and thus missing the point.

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#356890 - 12/20/07 08:47 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Stormdragon:

You did...

Jeff

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#356891 - 12/20/07 08:51 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Jude:

Belief or not for myself is the lessor issue. Provided I can improve my technique, find more subtle power (ie with less external effort), don't care what you call it... if I can replicate it (in spite of my doubts)... I'm "in" show me, teach me please....

Jeff

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#356892 - 12/20/07 09:43 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Jude:

Belief or not for myself is the lessor issue. Provided I can improve my technique, find more subtle power (ie with less external effort), don't care what you call it... if I can replicate it (in spite of my doubts)... I'm "in" show me, teach me please....

Jeff




Hi Jeff.

I dont think it is as easy as that.
It looks to me like the whole idea of the connection between physical and mental health was known centuries ago.
How this was I havent a clue considering that it seems the knowledge of the human body wasnt known in the Western world at that time.

It seems they kept a book in China recording centuries of gained knowledge.

Most Westerners see some of this knowledge as a joke. By the looks of things so do some Easterners.

What are the secrets?
Jeff I am just a begginer. My studies so far and my thoughts.


All I can see that I think might work at this moment in time is meditation/ nutrition/sleep/exercise and massage.

Meditation
Not some unknowing money grabbing guru B/S but slowly trying to adjust the mind.
Perhaps deciding on a specific thought pattern and keep working at it untill it comes natural.
If the conscious and the subconscious mind are in conflict
then the whole system gets screwed up.
Some gurus write about some form of meditation autosuggestion and creative visualization done at certain times are the key. I should imagine it is something that has to be done all the time.
Combined with the other things.


The endocrine system controls the mind. The mind controls the Endocrine system. Which is the ruler? Physical exercise can have some control of all of it. They all control physical exercise.
Nutrition and sleep and other processes have a large effect on everything.

What is the song?" Use your mind the rest will follow?
I think they got that wrong. It seems to be a lot of things that need to be worked on/corrected.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/20/07 10:08 AM)

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#356893 - 12/20/07 10:11 AM Re: what can you actually do with chi? [Re: Fisherman]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


Walking in bagau
Slow movements in Tai Chi
Correct body alignment gives more energy?





Possibly. I like to think of it more as we expend less energy because we move in a more efficient manner therefore we have more energy to expend.




The production of power through torque brought about by natural body movement is one thing I have only slightly touched on.
Sprinting using the momentum from the opposite side of the body.(Seemingly frowned up on by track coaches)
Using the walking movement/ opposite body side to produce power for a strike.

Interesting. This all reminds me of my early Trad karate days. Physical training and meditation. The problem was no one had a clue what we were meant to have been doing when meditating. Pity realy because if knew what I was looking for then I wouldnt be looking now.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/20/07 10:40 AM)

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