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#356282 - 08/17/07 03:32 AM Re: need a squat rack [Re: UKfightfreak]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Alternatively you could just go wrestler style and get up to 500 hindu squats (I've never been able to do it)




NOOOOOOO! You know what being able to do 500 hindu squats does for you? It means that you are able to do 500 hindu squats for a bet if challenged. It does not mean that it has created fight applicaple power or performance. Crazy volume/duation bodyweight work is a fine way of grinding your cartiladge to dust and setting up long term debilatating joint problems.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#356283 - 08/18/07 04:20 AM Re: need a squat rack [Re: Cord]
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Quote:

Quote:

Alternatively you could just go wrestler style and get up to 500 hindu squats (I've never been able to do it)




NOOOOOOO! You know what being able to do 500 hindu squats does for you? It means that you are able to do 500 hindu squats for a bet if challenged. It does not mean that it has created fight applicaple power or performance. Crazy volume/duation bodyweight work is a fine way of grinding your cartiladge to dust and setting up long term debilatating joint problems.




I would like to see some evidence that high volume work such as this grinds cartilage or causes debilitating problems. Do you have any links to resources that I could read up on?

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#356284 - 08/18/07 10:27 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: UKfightfreak]
Viator Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
It should be common sense that high volumne low weight work is, at the very least, not going to be fight specific beneficial to you. As for studys, none on hand, just anacdotal evidence. I'll do some research.

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#356285 - 08/19/07 04:29 AM Re: need a squat rack [Re: UKfightfreak]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I would like to see some evidence that high volume work such as this grinds cartilage or causes debilitating problems. Do you have any links to resources that I could read up on?




Does running 1000 paces stimulate strength and power in the legs, or promote stamina and development of the cardio-respiratory system?

Sustained sub maximal activity promotes aerobic capacity, and endurance in that specific activity.

Now there is nothing wrong with developing your steady state aerobic capacity, but it has little to do with the demands placed on the body during MA training, when the effort is not linear.

As for the cartiladge. removal of the meniscal cartiladge in distance runners/soccer players etc is one of the single most common operations in the sporting world, and what we call a 'bread and butter' situation in the rehabilitation professions, ie. its a staple source of income due to its regularity.
every time you articulate a joint, the cartilage is 'rubbed' against on each side by the bones involved. This causes ware and tear- like waves eroding the rocks on the sea shore.
The higher the volume of articulation, the greater the wear on the cartiladge. As the cartiladge 'errodes' it fragments, and leaves detritus in the synovial capsule, this in turn leads to discomfort and debilatation of joint movement (be like putting sand in engine oil). In the young and active, the first remedy is to drain the waste via arthroscopy, and leave the remaining cartiladge in place to be of what help it can. If its too worn, or the person is older, or it is a second arthroscopy for the same condition, then they just whip the cartiladge out and allow the bones to grind together. Short term this alleviates all problems, but long term, where there was once cartiladge errosion, there is now bone errosion as they grind each other to dust, so long term maintenance is vital.

one of the beauties of proper strength training is the low volume- you get great results very efficiently with low amounts of work. This makes it very joint friendly.

now your average isometric junky is volume crazy- 500 hindu squats, 400 push ups, 1000 sit ups etc. and thats per workout, not per week!

if you run your car on the motorway at 70 mph in 3rd gear at 8000 rpm, and I run mine in 5th gear at 3000 rpm, whos engine will last longer?

The body is in a state of inevitable degeneration. You can either reapect that and find efficient ways to keep it healthy as you seek your goals, or you can wear it out and suffer the consequences in later life.

Sir steve redgrave (olympic rower) was an amazing athlete, but the volume intensive nature of rowing lead to an MRI showing that upon retirement his spine was effectively 30 years older than he was! This is a price he paid to become one of histories greatest olympians.
If you wish to make a similar sacrifice to look good in a t-shirt or to do a bit better in your wednesday night kickboxing class then that is your prerogative, but dont expect me to encourage it- especially when there are more effective, more efficient and less harmful ways to go about it.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#356286 - 08/19/07 01:45 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: Cord]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Very good post Cord. In respect to athletes, I work with a ex pro CFL Football player (retired with the BC Lions). He like others who did their time on the line, have pain and discomfort raising their arms above their shoulders due to the continual impact and wearing of the joints and cartilage. I had confirmed this with him after I was told this by my Sports Doctor, who is an ex NHL multi Stanley Cup winner (retired with the Edmonton Oilers), who treats many football players. That continued repetition is demanding on the body and its joints and wear and tear will happen but at what rate is up to you. I am a big believer in "train smart today for a better life tomorrow".
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#356287 - 08/19/07 04:18 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: Dereck]
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Interesting posts, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I would still like to see some actual studies or evidence around this though. Taking the example of an Olympic athlete is a fair one, but his diet and regime may have been poor at some point or other poor training methods may have not been considered.

I suppose I'm really at a loss why people think this is such a big thing anyway (although Cord, I do agree with your statement that the use of being able to do 500 squats is not much use other than to be able to do them).

In fact an example of a rower is a good one, they probably pull more with their bodies than their bodyweight for repetitions far exceeding 500.

Reason why I'm a little skeptical is that I did a bit of research a few years ago and not a single person or resource that could give me any credible references to studies conducted except Tom Kurz who, although thinks doing 500 squats is useless, states that you should be able to do 100 before you start lifting with weight.

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#356288 - 08/20/07 03:22 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: UKfightfreak]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I would still like to see some actual studies or evidence around this though.




this is the problem with the world of the internet, it presumes that any info given by an individual has been sourced on the net. In my case, that is not true. I cant let you see the real world examples of these problems that I treated as client info is private and medical in nature, so the decade of client files I still have from being a sports therapist are confidential.
when it comes to a specific study of high rep bodyweight exercise in relation to RSI, bursitis and cartilage degradation, i doubt any such study has been comissioned, mainly because isometric work is never used exclusively, so results would be inconclusive.
If you search for studies on joint wear in general (especially knees and hips) you will find info on the condition. The fact that knees and hips are the most common joints to suffer these symptoms, and that we are bi-peds who travel through articulation of these joints more than any other should trigger a common sense link in your mind anyway. A lifetime of walking, using stairs etc, catches up with the joints of many as they reach retirement age. add in 500 hindu squats 2 x per week in their youth and you are talking about an additional 52000 gross motor articulations per year. That WILL take its toll.

Quote:

Taking the example of an Olympic athlete is a fair one, but his diet and regime may have been poor at some point or other poor training methods may have not been considered.




Thats not the case. his sport is, in its nature, volume intensive, and so is much of the training. now this is where i turn into a scratched record- HIGH PERFORMANCE PROFESSIONAL LEVEL ATHLETES ARE NOT INTERESTED IN LONG OR SHORT TERM HEALTH! They are interested in performance and success, at the expense of everything else- family, friends, love, health, long term wellbeing. That is why performance enhancing drugs are rife, its why they go through hell in training, its why they dose up on painkillers and compete with torn muscles. Nothing matters but the win; and it comes at a price to the body.

Quote:

I suppose I'm really at a loss why people think this is such a big thing anyway




I will tell you why I think its a big deal. In every gym in the world, every day, motivated hard working people are wasting hours of their lives doing exercise for exercise sake, not understanding how or why it effects the body. these people are often setting themselves up for injury and long term muscle imbalance, overtraining and failure. They are hamsters running in a wheel with no idea why or where they are going. Acumulatively, that is days, weeks, months even, wasted that can never be regained. Time that could be spent with loved ones, persuing other hobbies, studying, working, laughing, whatever. That is a tragedy born of misconception and misinformation that still passess as 'training methods' in the modern world. I have the knowledge to do something about it, in my own small way, and so use this forum to reach those who will listen with a better alternative.

Quote:

although Cord, I do agree with your statement that the use of being able to do 500 squats is not much use other than to be able to do them




Good. But if thats the case, why on earth say this?

Quote:

Alternatively you could just go wrestler style and get up to 500 hindu squats




That is a real person you have advised to do something that you dont believe in. Why?
Behind every post is a real person who has a real body that can be improved or damaged by the advice they choose to take. Thats why its 'such a big thing' to get it right.

Quote:

Tom Kurz who, although thinks doing 500 squats is useless, states that you should be able to do 100 before you start lifting with weight.




Sorry, but that is ridiculous. Bodyweight squats for strength gain are only valid if your legs and core are so weak that you gain the same physiological and neurological response/improvement that you would experience with 5x5 style lifting. 100 squats is an ineficient method of working on leg endurance. Endurance stimuli does nothing for improving strength, so why on earth enforce training for the wrong goal on yourself? Better to get your technique right and start challenging your body in the appropriate manner as soon as possible.
Unless of course you think that a sprinter should not be allowed to run fast until he proves he can jog a jalf marathon? Its the same difference.

Heavy weight, low rep work takes much less time, improves tendon and ligament strength, and works.

High volume repetetive exercise often causes tendonitis, bursitis, is ineficient in regards to time and amount of adaption in relation to amount of exercise.

To use your advice, if I work up to 500 hindu squats per workout and do that twice a week, where do I go from there 600? 800? 1000? After 3 years when I have worked up to doing 2000 hindu squats a week, and every workout is making me late for work, where do I go? volume is a sure fire way to destroy your body, that why 'progressive resistance' is always a safer, more efficient method of training.

Good luck with whatever you decide, but i assure you I am right.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#356289 - 08/20/07 06:00 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: Cord]
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Thanks Cord, you do make a good argument (And passionate one!). I think the key points for me is the 'wasting hours of your life' argument, which is probably THE reason why I will agree that 500 hindu squats is a bad idea.

As a note though - the 100 hindu squats is meant as a preparing activity for a beginner - so your comment of chronically weak would be a good one (I wouldn't expect someone who squats regularly to do this). In your runner/sprinter example, it would be like getting someone that doesn't do any exercise to do the fastest sprint they could - it would probably make them keel over!! This is the same for a 100 rep hindu squat to that of adding weight.

As for the comment of advising stuff I don't believe in, I still think this is far safer than squating from a home-made rack (which is what the post was originally about). I also think it's far safer than methods taught in many of the UK's training halls and gyms (I still see 90 degree squats taught as gospel - eek!)

To clarify the statement about it not being a big deal - I meant that 500 squats isn't physically a big deal (as opposed to the advice given on a post not being a big deal).

Reason why, is it sounds high but but think about it, a doctor will give an overweight person who is chronically weak and unfit and probably a host of health issues including that of joints and tell them to do 10,000 steps walking per day. in say a 16 stone guy, that's 5,000 steps on each leg with 16 stone being rammed down it for each step (sorry I have no idea how to work out movement and how much this would increase the weight by). Basically, I really can't see why a fit amateur Martial Artist would find 500 hindu squats an issue anyway and why this would be considered as high volume causing tedonitis etc. (I've seen enough aerobics classes do these sorts of numbers)

Overall though, I concede that 500 hindu squats, for whatever reason is a bit of a rubbish idea. Although I would still recommend 100 to a beginner who hasn't touched weights before [UKFF now goes and plans his super-squat routine for the next 6 weeks and can't remember why he ever thought 500 squats was a good idea in the first place... UKFF blames Matt Furey propaganda]

Seriously though, thanks for the debate!

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#356290 - 08/20/07 06:22 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: UKfightfreak]
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Browsing around the web and saw this:

http://www.stadion.com/mailings/mailing08142007.html

I think the comment reflects my sentiment - as opposed to a dogma around training:
Quote:


"...that sports training is not a one time event—it is a process with
many variables that can be controlled. (For the slow of mind, an
explanation: You feel what you do and adjust your exercises
accordingly to the guiding principles in the columns mentioned
above.)"



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#356291 - 08/20/07 06:30 PM Re: need a squat rack [Re: UKfightfreak]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Good debate, I rather enjoyed this. Both thought out and respectable, excellent job.

I think what Thomas Kurz is saying is that they should be able to do this if they tried, based on their training but it is not necessary. For myself doing over a 100 push-ups should not be a problem but it is not necessary to do them to prove it. I know I can do them easily as I've done them but I didn't have to as working with heavy weights and low repetitions and making gains should be enough. My Yamaha YZF-R6 can do 300 Km/Hr (187 mph) but I don't have to do it to know it.

Again good stuff guys.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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