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#355082 - 12/23/07 10:14 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: ThunderboltLotus]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK

Mike,
'Uehara has previously denied kiko was in his art' (JAMA Vol5 No3 p.72) so he does. Interesting that he makes a comment about 'What I mean is that nobody can knock down an opponent without touching them' I wonder if he was making a comment on somebody else here.

As to the question:

How do you know if it was practised by Seitoku Higa that it is not Seido?

It relates specifically to this quote:
Although Uehara has previously denied kiko was in his art, Seitoku Higa (who received his 10th dan Hanshi in Motobu Ryu in 1975, and Mark Bishop teach/taught or described it as such.(As an all encompassing TI rather than just Udun ti)

Do we know how the Kiko of Seikichi Uehara differed from that of Seitoku Higa?

or more specifically do we know what the differences are between what came from Kishomoto to Higa and Uehara to Higa?

On a further note it is interesting that the Bugeikan Ti Kata's Nidan Pabu and Sanpabu were made in the 1920's at the Bugeikan and that the Motobu Udun di Kata's did not get introduced until after Seitoku Higa's involvement in Udun di.

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355083 - 12/26/07 06:46 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Been busy again...just popping in for a bit...
Wondering if maybe we should move some of the more recent discussion to a more general udunti thread? Not strictly forms and applications anymore...
And by the way, still waiting on my sensei to post anything on youtube...

As for the kiko question, I haven't been taught anything resembling kiko as of yet...and I did a few workshops in qi gong with an acupunturist here a few years ago, so have some experience with the Chinese version.

However, we do have teaching of tsubo for fighting applications and I know my shihan is interested in breathing techniques. Our ti-no-moto exercises may also seem somewhat kiko-like, but again the ideas of energy creation and storage are not explicit. Why we do it has always been given a more mechanical explanation, so as to prepare the heart, lungs, and tendons...perhaps not so different in practice...

Also, I think "ti" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning something similar to "ki/qi", but the "ti" in udunti is the same as the "te" in karate. We don't use "ti" other than in compounds like udunti and ti-no-moto, etc.

There's a big misunderstanding from Uehara sensei's dvd that he is supposedly knocking his uke down without touching them, when in fact they are doing what they have been trained to do to avoid his weapon and get in position to attack again--nothing to do with "ki" power transmission whatsoever (you see that stuff on Japanese TV every once in a while).

Is the idea of a family of related "ti" systems primarily Mark Bishop's interpretation? I'm not sure that term is used in Japan that way (definitely not by my sensei, though he may be biased!)

Gesar--
No information for you on the history of sword arts in udunti. Still reading through a bunch of other stuff in Japanese. I know some people say it was developed from sword techniques, but we're always told the empty hand is primary. Weapons are whatever you find available and use them with the same basic movements as with the empty hand. Again, I doubt there will ever be a definitive answer as to what came first, other than tooth, nail, stick, rock. I'm only just starting to be introduced to sword training, however...

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#355084 - 12/29/07 12:52 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Actually, there's a good explanation of the usage of the term "ti" in the Japanese wikipedia...if that helps...
Not sure if this link will work:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%89%8B_%28%E6%B2%96%E7%B8%84%E6%AD%A6%E8%A1%93%29

Well, it helped me because my post above was pretty confused on the point...but understandable in that the term has been used to refer to Okinawan martial arts in general, the chinese-derived martial arts that came to be known as karate (toudi/karate), and the "indigenous" martial arts with connections to Okinawan dance (uchinadi).

I think maybe there is a better term than just "ti" for the latter in English. The confusion of "ti" with "ki" is not something Mark Bishop intended at all, but an acquaintence asked me because he was confused by the term, thinking that I've been learning how to harness and utilize "ti".

And the average Japanese budoka would likely not recognize the term at all.

Another thing I'd like to see is standardation of english orthography for terms, because now it is a mess with some things transliterated from Okinawan pronunciations and others from Japanese pronunciations and some a mixture of both! The best minds should get together and make some decisions here...starting with "udundi/udunti/udonde"!

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#355085 - 12/29/07 05:05 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Rascal Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
At the Kodokai, In Rhode Island, USA, we haggled over the use of "UdunTi" vs. UdunDi". After carefully listening and also asking Takamiyagui Sensei, we decided that UdunDi" was the most accurate based upon how the Okinawan practitioners were pronouncing the word. We figured that it was their language so their pronunciation was the best way to write it (so our students visiting Okinawa would pronounce it accurately).

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#355086 - 12/29/07 06:18 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Rascal]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
i used "ti" first out of habit...that was the spelling i had first encountered, but "di" is better...

the vowel sounds are harder to approximate, but "udundi" would appear to be the best-accepted romanization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_writing_system

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#355087 - 12/29/07 08:17 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Di just as it is correct to say Dao for Tao in Chinese, showing a clear connection between the cultures of China and Okinawa through language.

In common parlance the terms Ti/Te/di are used inter changeably by most people in the west, in all probability on the basis of the writings of Mark Bishop. I think you are right that he did not intend for the term Ti to be muddled with Ki, but his own ti was Shiatsu related and so went the way that Mike Powell is talking about.

I am sure that even if a standardisation of Motobu Udun di terms did take place that discussions will still carry on using these other terms when discussing Ti/Te/di more generally or whatever it is that people think they mean. Take the Wade Giles and Pin Yin systems for Romanizing the Chinese language, you will end up with slightly different phoentics with the same meanings across two systems.

Anyway, I posted some of the Bugeikan Ti/Te/di Demo's on Youtube recently for purposes of comparison and comment. I would be especially interested in any comments as to how these compare to Motobu Udun Di that people have learnt

Di Kihon combined with soem Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuhHlaqhHlU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC3NfDdlLhg

Tuidi/grappling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KjIU3JIS8M

Tuidi 2 against 1 grappling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsZVLzCCgrA

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355088 - 12/30/07 08:51 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
Rascal Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
I'm thrilled to see these video's, thank you!
I notice a couple of differences from what I am being taught (at Seidokan,Okinawa).

1. The use of weight in these video's seems to be employed by leaning into the technique (bending at the waist). We are taught to step into the technique or to pivot 180 degrees to generate pushing type of force. We are not to generate any force from our upper body strength.

2. The other most noticable difference is the footwork (which influences that mentioned above). We are vigorously corrected if we fail to use what they call "mai", stepping into the technique with the same side foot and hand. As we step we are to protect our groin by twisting the hips and crossing the knee of the foot coming forward in front of the other knee to cover. We do this when we punch or when we throw a maegeri (the only kick that we use). We are to use a very light touch with the hands, not a firm grab. So any torque generating action must come from our bodies movements rather than our hand or arm movements.

3. Another related difference is the general attitude and posture while waiting for the attack. We are taught not to kamae- no hopping, no excitement, no holding the hands up in readiness. More like the calm walking that Uehara Sensei demonstrates in his video's that seems to baffle or be underestimated by so many who view them!

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#355089 - 12/30/07 01:21 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Rascal]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Rascal,
Thank you for your comments.

1. I agree that there does as you say seem to be a lot of leaning into the techniques with the upper body in these grappling scenarios, something that is clearly not present in all of the available footage of Uehara Sensei and his students.

2. I was of the impression that the footwork between Motobu Udun di and Bugeikan di was very different, whilst some of the Kihon seems to demonstrate lead leg and lead hand this does not seem to be present in the grappling aspects shown in these videos.

As regards the light touch aspect
In the book Shindoryu yumemaboroshi no jutsu which is about Seitoku Higa, which has sometimes been amusingly translated as 'The Incredible techniques of Shinto Ryu Jutsu of Seitoku Higa' the writer apparently talks about in the beginning about the “light” touch of Seitoku Higa when doing techniques. Higa said when coming in contact with the opponent attacking arm, you should not push, pull or grip the arm. Instead you should “ride” (guide) the opponent’s movement. He seems to be implying that one should not give any energy (force/strength) to the opponent that he can use (yield to and reverse). Higa here seems to be talking about the very light touch, like what you are referring to here, but which is missing from this material I have posted.

3. There is clearly a very specific dynamic in terms of the Bugeikan material shown in these videos which differs greatly from what is available in terms of Motobu Udun di material. As you say the hands are held up, there is also the hopping type movement which seems to characterise a lot of the early Bugeikan material.

Given that Seitoku Higa has been mentioned in this thread a few times and that there are some clear differences between the di of the Bugeikan which comes from one source and Motobu Udun di of Seikichi Uehara,which Seitoku Higa also trained in, I have posted a couple of clips of Seitoku Higa doing some demonstrations.

What I would like to determine here is whether or not these clips of Seitoku Higa show a high level of performance of what can recognisably be called Motobu Udun di or something else.

The clips:
The first of these shows the use of empty hand against Naginata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOukiIAnxSg

The second shows firstly the way the sword has been used in this school, including the footwork, this is followed by empty hand against sword and can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCL6-euwYVM

as regards this last clip, I would be specifically interested to know if the solo sword work done at the beginning is the same as in Motobu Ryu Udun di that people have experienced.

As regards the Mark Bishop and Te/Ti/Ki thing, in his second book Zen Kobudo: Mysteries of Okinawan Weaponry and Te (and Te is the spelling used throughout), he states on page 144 the following: a large part of the training nowadays is dance "to noursih the secret principles of Ki (intrinsic energy) which includes the Ki of heaven and earth in a martial context" He is of course speaking about the Bugeikan here and the development of what is called Seido there would seem to bear this out.

Regards

Chris Norman


Edited by Gesar (12/30/07 01:43 PM)

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#355090 - 12/30/07 07:05 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
Rascal Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
These video's are so interesting!
First, I am not an expert in any way- only a student. I make that fact perfectly clear to those who come to our practice sessions. My interest in Udun Di developed out of pure fascination with the art. A few of us started practicing regularly and more and more people watched and wanted to participate. We were enjoying it so much and felt guilty for not letting others join us but I was not qualified to teach. Last January, I, along with one of my students, was asked to teach here in America by Taira Sensei of the Seidokan. Now we accept others into our practice and have about a dozen students. I am still just learning and loaded with questions, but I am truly appreciating this art more and more. Our focus has been on dance and what Seiki Toma collectively called "goshin-jutsu". While I have seen others practicing and demonstrating various weapons, I have only been taught the bo and the tiniest bit of sword.
Based upon what I have seen both of these clips seem to be Udun Di. And yes, the solo sword basics are absolutely consistant with what I have been shown.

Hope this helps!
Sincerely,
Dennis Branchaud

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#355091 - 12/30/07 09:58 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Rascal]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Dennis,
I am glad that you found the video material interesting.
Thanks for your comments, they are indeed helpful, especially the point on the sword basics.

I was merely trying to ascertain peoples opinions on the basis of their personal experience within Motobu Ryu Udun Di from people on this forum such as yourself and Chofukaino whom I know are students of that line.

I had suspected that the films of Seitoku Higa doing the displays that I posted were of Motobu Udun Di. Whilst there are some clear differences between what has come out of the Bugeikan and Motobu Udun Di (the earlier videos posted), there are also, as one would expect, given Seitoku Higa's training background some clear similarities (the latter videos posted).

So do you have any ideas on this Kiko that has come up in this thread that Mike Powell mentioned earlier in relation to Di and dance but which Chofukiano tells us he has not experienced as of yet?

Regards

Chris Norman

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