FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 32 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
charlie 2
futsaowingchun 2
Matakiant 1
William_Bent 1
simonajones111 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 14 < 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
#355042 - 08/13/07 02:57 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, you are correct about the fact that Ti is a weapons based art. However, his movements were based on sword handling techniques. And, similar to some kenjutsu arts, the empty hand techniques are based on the weapons handling.

Top
#355043 - 08/13/07 07:22 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yes that would make sense, I think he did significant research with the traditional Ryukyu dance people to come up with this kata - hence my ocmment it was proberly not passed down through the ages.

Higa Sensei did similair (ie create kata) with a few kata practised at the Bugeikan, however these were specifically empty hand kata.

However my understanding/expierience of sword arts is not significant so I could easily be wrong.

Its certianly an interesting kata and very different from the majority of classical karate kata.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#355044 - 08/15/07 07:14 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: shoshinkan]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
It is my understanding that the Kata's that have appeared in Motobu Udun Ti are all relatively late developments. In 1994 there was a total of 8 kata taught: 2 versions of what is called Mutu nu di,3 versions of kasshin-di, 2 versions of Shihan Kyozai, 1 kata called Ti-nu-mutu and of course Anji-Kata-nu-mai-nu-di, which is the one being discussed here, also known as Anji No Mai No Te Kata.

Anji No Mai No Te Kata, is usually translated as Dance hand of the Lords, which has already been established in this thread. It is correct that this allegedly higher level kata, the Anji No Mai No Te Kata was one that Seikichi Uehara did not manage to learn from his teacher Choyu Motobu, before Uehara emigrated to the Philippines in 1926.
In 1992 Seikichi Uehara in his publication Bu no Mai Ryukyu Oke hiden bujutsu (Martial Dance of the Ryukyu)stated that he had not learnt this kata from Choyu Motobu but also added that 'strangely enough, this is the hand form (tigata) of the graceful womens dances (Onna Dori)of the Ryukyu's'. The research which was done to formulate the Anji no mekata and create the present form actually took place between September 1974 and February 1976 and involved Shimabukuro Mitsuhiro chair of Murasaki no Kai (Purple Association) and involved looking at classical womens dance forms (Onna Dori). Some sources have stated that Takeo Miyagi (one of Uehara Sensei's senior students) was also involved in its research, it is clear that he wrote a column for the Okinawan Times to promote an event that involved Dance and Te and may have been involved in the modification of the kata that has occurred over time.

In 1996 Sensei Uehara in an interview with Richard Florence stated that he did not regard Anji No mai no Te kata as a kata in the strictest sense but regarded it as the ultimate method of movement in all kata that changed depending on whether it was performed with and without a weapon.

Apparently the three main movements that can be found in this kata which represent some of the characteristic techniques of Motobu Udun Ti can be found in the prayer ceremonies used by Okinawan Priestesses. These movements are: Rising (Ogami Te = Prayer hand),Reversing (Coneri Te = Twist hand) and Lowering (Oshi Te = push hand).
The Anji No Mai No Te Kata is the most advanced
empty hand form in Uehara's Motobu Udun Ti system.

In Mark Bishop's Okinawan Karate Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques there is mention of the botanist Shinju Tawata having seen a Ti like kata which looked more like a dance performed by Choyu Motobu, it is believed by some that this could have been the original Anjikata no Mekata (Anji No Mai no Te Kata).

As regards the Motobu Udun Ti secret scroll containing the teachings of Motobu Udun Ti about which Medulanet
wrote 'until we find the secret scrolls with the movements and detailed explaination we won't'.

Unfortunately we will not be able to find these secret scrolls as: 'The Motobu Makimono which was given to Seikichi Uehara on the 24 December 1926 was in his rucksack whilst he was meeting the call of nature whilst in the Philipines in World War 2 sometime between 1941 and 1945 when a Amerucan bomb fell on it' (Florence 1996:70).

As for Mr Seitoku Higa and his Kata, there are 4 Ti kata which can be classified into 2 groups that are allegedly passed down from his teacher; Kishomoto, although in my humble opinion it is very likely that Mr Higa may have made these up on the basis of the techniques that he was taught. Again as Jim is very much aware, these have also been subject to some modification over time.


Regards

Chris Norman

Top
#355045 - 08/16/07 07:17 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
welcome and thanks Chris,

the information is very interesting and far better put,
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#355046 - 08/27/07 12:01 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: shoshinkan]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I was watching an old video with an interview with Seikichi Uehara on Mutobu Udon ti.

He stated that Choyou Motobu was the last of the instructors to the royal family of the royal martial art Udon ti. So not the royal bodyguards but the royal family (maybe the bodyguards were also family ???, they were at least nobleman). The Motobu family did this for 11 generations, Choyou Motobu being the last one.

After the 1879, when the kingdom was abolished and Okinawa became part of Japan, Choyou Motobu teached his art to 2 persons: his son Chomo and Seikichi Uehara. Seikichi Uehara was a student for 7 years in the 1920ies. After WWII Seikichu Uehara started to teach the art in public.

The biggest part of Motobu Udon ti is weapons. The techniques are also found in the dance of Okinawa, in particular there is a direct link between the female dance called RyuKyu Bujo and the Motobu style. The techniques correpond in particular to the staff and sword techniques. So these techniques were disguised as dances to pass on to next generations. All masterdancers of the royal family wrer male. So by passing on the dances they also passed on the secret techniques. There is however no connection to the male dances.

As it was forbidden to draw a weapon in the castle, or even to start a fight, unarmed restraining techniques were necesary to control an adversary using practically no violence. These unarmed techniques are not like karate techniques (tsuki and uchi) but are the circular techniques found in the dances wich are based on the techniques of the sword.


Edited by CVV (08/27/07 12:07 PM)

Top
#355047 - 08/28/07 08:43 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
very good point re the Royal family (and aristocrats?) and the actual bodyguards perhaps training in different ways for different reasons, clearly makes sense.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#355048 - 08/31/07 06:54 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: CVV]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Just curious which old video were you watching? The only ones that I am aware of with an interview was the Okinawan BuJutsu Seikichi Uehara 10th Dan released by Budo International Video Production, plus some short footage on the Uchina Video: Okinawa Karate Masters, which you may be more able to translate the narration better than I can, given your location and the original language of the film maker of the latter. If this latter one is the one which you are referring to I would be very interested in what is actually being said.

You are correct in that the Motobu Udun Ti system was instructed to the Okinawan Royal Family, the body guards to that family were at one point allegedly taught by Bushi Matsumura. As for Chomo Motobu, the seciond son of Choyu Motobu's three sons, he was unwilling to take on the respnsibility of the family martial arts system, so we are told, and moved to Wakayama prefecture, although there is little doubt that he had learnt some of the family system, as in early 1924 Choyu Motobu sent Seikichi Uehara to Wakayama to teach him. Chomo died during world war 2 during an air raid, so we will never know how much he was actually taught or whether he would have ever inherited the system.

As you correctly state a big part of Motobu udun Ti is weapons, though I am not certain what you mean by RyuKyu Bujo? Do you mean Bu as in Bu No Mai, which refers to dance? or do you mean Bu as in martial and Jo as in the weapon?

I am only aware of the following clasifications of Ryukyu dances, (but I am no expert, even with my ethnomusicology and Anthropology background):
1. Rojin Odori Dances of the elderly
2. Wakashu Dori Boys dances
3. Onna Dori Womens Dances
4. Nisai Dori Young Mens dances
5. Zo Odori Miscellanoeous dances

There is clearly a link between Onna Dori (Classical womens dances) but this is a relatively late conclusion following the research with Seikichi Uehara in conjunction with Mitsuhiro Shimabukuro (See the article in the Okinawa Times dated 25th November 1974 written by Takeo Miyagi). Of course that does not mean that it was not always there.

I think it is fair to say that there is some evidence of old Okinawan Te in the Onnna Dori (Womens Dances), but I think that it is going a little bit too far to say that 'The techniques correpond in particular to the staff and sword techniques So these techniques were disguised as dances to pass on to next generations' Though I will not doubt the probability, its certainly one perspective on it the at has been put about. Do you per chance have a source for this conclusion? The interview with Uehara perhaps?


The reason I am a little sceptical is some years ago when I was studying at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, I had an opportunity to see some, though not all, of these dances performed under the careful direction of Noho Miyagi and since then I have remained unconvined of this argument. But as I say, I saw some, not all of the dances.

Another reason for my sceptism is that the kata which is being discussed in this thread the Anji No Mekata, the Dance of teh Feudal Lords, the pinnacle of Motobu Udun Ti, was not learnt by Seikichi Uehara from his teacher Choyu Motobu.

Yes, I agree that there is some sword and staff in the Ryukyu dances but it does not correspond directly to the sword and staff techniques in Motobu Udun Ti, but I will not doubt that there is something of a corelation. I also still have questions about the Bo No Dori of the Jigen Ryu, which was a folk dance taught to villagers to protect themselves and wonder how this may relate.

Regards

Chris Norman

Top
#355049 - 09/01/07 05:37 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
The video is 'Les maitres D'Okinawa' from Karate Bushido.
Karate Bushido is a French MA magazine and also offers DVD's and so fort on the subject. This is a video from somewhere in the 90ies and is no longer in production.

The narator translating Uehara's words, said Ryukyu Bujo when referring about the link between the female dances (multiples) and Mutobu Udon Ti. Cannot tell you more about it.

Quote:


I think it is fair to say that there is some evidence of old Okinawan Te in the Onnna Dori (Womens Dances), but I think that it is going a little bit too far to say that 'The techniques correpond in particular to the staff and sword techniques So these techniques were disguised as dances to pass on to next generations' Though I will not doubt the probability, its certainly one perspective on it the at has been put about. Do you per chance have a source for this conclusion? The interview with Uehara perhaps?




Yes, it comes from the interview. Uehara sensei is demonstrating it as upward cutting and downward cutting movement with the sword(without actually holding a sword) with closed hands, and then showing the dance movements with open hand.
This comes back when he demonstrates empty hand techniques and its relation to sword techniques and dance movements. In this case it is a vertical cut first in direction east to west then back west to east whe the hands would turn.

But I heared about the link of dance and ti also from other masters. I remember a video where a Goju-ryu master (I think Morio Higaonna) discussed the relation between dances / ti postures and karate. I think the other master was Shoshin Nagamine. But I cannot remember what video it was. But it was about the hand position and the resablance to keiko-ken.


Edited by CVV (09/01/07 05:52 PM)

Top
#355050 - 09/06/07 06:39 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: CVV]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
The Uchina Video: Okinawa Karate Masters video I mentioned before has the French title 'Les maitres D'Okinawa'. It is indeed an interesting video and is as you state not so readily available as some of the other material. It is nevertheless IMHO an important piece of footage and is certainly the one that shows the clearest relationship between Seikichi Uehara's Okinawan Ti and Dance. Shame you cannot say much more about it though. Bsides we are always likely to run into problems translating accurately from Okinawan dialect into French and back to English and getting the original intended meaning.

Whilst I am not disputing the relationship between Ti and Dance as that is clearly there, its just that the emphasis placed on its correspondence at times is not always as solid as its made out to be. This is unfortunate because often this results in mising out on the careful study of a lot of interesting tales of old Okinawa and demonstrations of old Okinawan martial arts in the various dances and drama's for example take the Kumidori drama's composed by Tasato Chochoku (1703-73) for the investure of King Sho Boku in 1756. One such tale is the Ogusuku Kuzure, the fall of Ogusuku castle, the Royal castle before Shuri, where there is a story of old Okinawa and some martial arts scenes portrayed as dance, there are numerous others examples. Only thing is that the dance and drama's of the Ryukyu's that have been passed down to the present day were laid down in the 18th Century, Motobu Udun Ti claims to be much older. This is not to say that the dances and drama's do not have their seed of origins in an earlier period. It just makes it difficult to substantiate the claim that there is a direct correspondence with Ti techniques hidden in dance and having some exactitude.

I am aware of the footage you refer to with Morio Higaonna and the discussion about and demonstration of Okinawan Dance and its relationship to Goju Ryu Karate (which is of relatively recent origin in terms of Okinawan styles), although some would say that the relationship discussed there is not quite the same as that as seen between what Uehara is demonstrating in the 'Les maitres D'Okinawa' video relating classical Okinawan dance to the type of Ti that he practises. Personally I prefer to keep an open mind on that particular matter and think that there is some merit in what you are saying.

Regards

Chris Norman

Top
#355051 - 09/09/07 05:48 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I post this simply as its in front of me (I got this book over 15 years ago and continue to re-read it!), from Mark Bishops Okinawan Karate book, 1st edition -

from page 64/65, Bushi Matsumuras letter to his student Ryosei Kuwae ((written very late 1800's)-

The three kinds of fighting arts are -

1. those of the court instructors (Bishop references this being likely describing Motobu Ryu, ie Ti)

2. nominal styles (described by Matsumura as people who do not practise regulary etc etc, im not sure of this clasification apart form a reference to the lack of effort and sincerity from many in their training perhaps?)

3. the true fighting arts (I can only assume he is refering to his shorin ryu karate, ie based on the classical kata amongst other things)

The court instructors styles are practised in a very unusual way, movements are never the same, formless and light, becoming (like women) more and more dance like as the proponents mature

further on he says -

'Court Instructors and nominal styles are useless'

Now this is just what Mr Bishop has written, so its his translation but it is from a document of a relevant time, from a significant master.

I have an interest in RyuKyu Ti, it is an area I research to a degree, but these words are fairly powerful IMO, and it supports the 'gap' I suspect was always there between tode and Ryukyu Ti.

Certainly the video footage I have seen from Motobu Ryu, Bugeikan and Mark Bishop would indicate the Ti they all practise is not combat led (not making them inferior etc etc, perhaps they just have other goals?), but for something else primarily, with 'some function'.

but as with all these things, the water is murky and to be 'correct' is difficult at best.

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
Page 2 of 14 < 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga