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#355092 - 12/31/07 03:09 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
Rascal Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
We have not encountered any unique "kiko" exercises or emphasis. Any mention of ki has been simply in properly relaxing our bodies to let ki flow- little more than that. No mention of ki during the dance practice, and we enjoyed quite a bit of private instruction with detailed explanations.
We have done no kata and, though it seems to be a common practice in the southern school (Uehara Sensei, son of Seikichi), it seems to be of little importance to the school of Taira Sensei.

Last January we enjoyed some unique exposure to techniques that their regular students hadn't seen in ten years. They were astounded by many of the things being shown by Taira Sensei. He was pleased by our visit and progress so was in a very positive mood and was clearly happy to break the silence about some techniques. The more surprised and elated his students were the more he showed. But no talk of kiko- only physical explanation of technique.
Of course, this doesn't mean that there isn't some type of kiko exercise. This just means that I haven't seen any. They don't seem to be hiding much from us, in fact they bombard us with technique after technique. They point out the fact that they are giving us advanced techniques and have skipped the basic training. Perhaps this is why we aren't exposed to kata, and who knows, maybe there is some kiko exercise that we have inadvertenly circumnavigated as well.
It's all very interesting. One thing is clear. The Seidokan does not have a standardized teaching curriculum. It is taught more one on one where individuals diverge into groups that spontaneously are rearranged throughout practice. Each group works on select techniques based upon experience amd ukemi abilities. The atmosphere is very relaxed. Very little punching and kicking is practiced but this could be because everyone was once (or still is) a karate person (some did judo). The punch or kick practice seems simply to be focused on unlearning karate punches.

Sincerely,
Dennis Branchaud

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#355093 - 12/31/07 07:21 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
"Ti" would be appropriate used alone, "di" in compounds (similar to consonant changes that happen in chinese and japanese).
My problem with "ti" as used by western commentators is that it implies the indigenous Okinawan arts (as opposed to toudi) are the only true martial art, since the term was originally basically equivalent to "bujutsu". Imagine saying judo is bujutsu but aikido is not!

I don't think kiko-like practices are absent in what i am doing, just not explicit. This may explain some of Uehara sensei's seeming inconsistencies--aspects were present in what he learned, but just not labeled yet. Understandable, as he spent a long time outside of the mainstream during the period of the popularization of karate and the other fighting arts in Japan.

The Bugeikan clips were very interesting, but a little difficult to see clearly. One thing I noticed was Higa sensei's use of "ducking" moves vs. the naginata. In contrast, Ikeda shihan moves very similar to the way Uehara sensei does in the video on youtube. Also, as Dennis Branchaud notes, the Bugeikan footwork is springier and use of kamae is different.

Honestly, I wasn't much impressed with the sword work I saw...I am certainly no expert, but sensei would be saying to me "all arms!" We do train against those basic kinds of moves, but the more advanced sword techniques are one-handed, getting a few inches of the tip in to vulnerable areas. In contrast with the Japanese use of the sword, the whole body moves rather than just the wrist or the arm. Describing these things with just words is so difficult!

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#355094 - 12/31/07 09:44 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Chofukaino,
I agree with what you are saying about Ti and di, hence why we have the term Toudi which implies an Chinese Martial art that could be found in Okinawa. Personally I think when talking about Ti or di we need to be specific such as in Motobu Udun Di or Toudi or Takemura's Di. When we are not being specific then it should be taken that we are talking about Ti or Di as a collection of Martial arts that can or could be found in Okinawa.

Anyway here is an interesting link about Ti and one which strongly emphasises that Ti should not be muddled with Ki:
http://www.shinjinbukan.com/system_1.html


As you say some of the Bugeikan footage is not as clear as it could be, but these are very old films which have been taken from analogue to digital.

As regards Higa Sensei, others who have seen these clips (before I recently posted them on Youtube) feel that although he may have studied Motobu Udun Di he was still influenced by his earlier training.

Dennis and Chofukaino thanks for your responses on the Kiko aspect. One of the reasons that I am particularly interested in this Kiko aspect is that it is most definitely an explicit aspect of the Bugeikan's Seido and I would like to try and make some distinctions between this Kiko in Seido and what may or may not be present in Motobu Udun Di. At some point when I have compressed the files I may upload some of this Bugeikan Seido and post the link here.

Happy New Year all.

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355095 - 01/01/08 12:17 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Ok here is that link that I promised of Bugeikan Seido:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htmGhKSuz-g,

The first part shows this Kiko, or meditative walking, this is then followed by some techniques against multiple Uke's, followed by some more of this Kiko and then something else done from Seiza.

Comments?

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355096 - 01/01/08 02:42 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
Rascal Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
I have seen nothing like this at the Seidokan!

Interesting. It reminds me of the things you see in Shintaido. Takamiyagi Sensei, one of the Udun Di people who helps us out quite a lot, is very interested in Shintaido and hopes to someday travel to Japan to learn. This type of thing is very interesting to him. Perhaps he has been exposed to this type of exercise in Udun Di. I can't easily ask him about this Seido since I am now in the U.S. and these questions are best asked in person.
Dennis Branchaud

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#355097 - 01/01/08 05:33 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Ok here is that link that I promised of Bugeikan Seido:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htmGhKSuz-g,

The first part shows this Kiko, or meditative walking, this is then followed by some techniques against multiple Uke's, followed by some more of this Kiko and then something else done from Seiza.

Comments?

Regards

Chris Norman




This video is a big load of what I just put in my toilet. Until I see a video of him doing these techniques on people other than his students who don't like him and want to hurt him this will always be a diservice to okinawan martial arts. This is not udundi, its garbage.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#355098 - 01/01/08 05:57 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: medulanet]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Medulanet,
When I said comments? I was in expectation of the response you gave. In fact I had expected several more comments on the same lines and sooner to tell you the truth.

There is absolutely no way that I am going to attempt to defend the performance shown in the video, as like you I simply don't buy into it and agree that it is a diservice.

What got me best of all was the way that one of the girls managed after the 'remote projection' to roll away and carefully avoid falling on her class mate!!!

Nobody has said that this was Udun Di it is something called Seido from the Bugeikan. The relevance of it to this thread was to determine whether the Kiko (meditative walking)referred to earlier in this thread and shown at the beginning of the video was in anyway comparable to Motobu Udun Di, which the person shown in the video has also allegedly trained in.

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355099 - 01/02/08 08:21 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
WE DO NOT DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS WHATSOEVER IN MOTOBURYU UDUNDI!!!!!!!!!

are you really sure this is not someone taking the [censored]? the whole atmosphere is like a community festival where someone might do a parody of "secret arts" or something...but no one is laughing...

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#355100 - 01/02/08 10:05 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Rascal Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
I'm certainly not about to defend this as a martial art but we are looking at it completely out of context.
When Shintaido does this sort of thing its not supposed to be "real", its acting, pretending. They do it for artistic expression and exercise (and maybe for other purposes as well).
This reminds me of the stage hypnotists we see here at the county fairs where people do weird things as part of a performance. Are they supposed to be hypnotized?

It's deffinitely wacky and not my cup of tea but maybe they aren't trying to pass it off as real. Maybe it's just some weird exercise.

DB

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#355101 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Rascal]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Chofukaino,
Its a demonstration done in Okinawa which one supposes is to a actually publicise this Seido. No unfortunately it is not as far as I and others are aware some one taking the [Censored].

Dennis,
I take your point here especially with Shintaido (which is a style which I do have some respect for) where the type of thing they do is an exercise and that is all that they claim it is. As regards this Bugeikan Seido it is an unfortunate fact, in both my own and others opinion, is that they do take it as being real and do try to pass it off as such.

I am very glad to hear that nothing like this is done in Motobu Udun Di.

So I take it that this means we can definitely say that the Kiko (meditative walking) done at the beginning is not part of Udun Di either.

Regards

Chris Norman

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