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#355062 - 10/26/07 10:25 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
I spontaneously remembered what my sensei calls the other two kata: "me-oto-te". The hands are held palms out to one side of the body, as if you were pushing up against a wall. This position switches from side to side...kind of difficult to explain. But one hand is sometimes behind (closer to the body) than the other, so maybe that is where the name comes from. (I will confirm this tomorrow.)

There is a kamae with one hand at the elbow used in other contexts.

We are supposed to be able to use two hands and a leg simultaneously to attack/defend at all times, and me-oto-te is probably designed to build that ability.


Edited by chofukainoa (10/26/07 10:29 AM)

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#355063 - 10/26/07 03:55 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Chofukainoa,
I think I know what you are referring to with the push against the wall and changing sides, I have seen some film of Motobu Udun Ti Kata's where this is done.

The Kamae with one hand at the elbow, the Mefutode, that I was referring to is sometimes loosely called the 'Gentleman Jim's boxing posture' as it resembles some early European boxing hand positions. This posture has been used by Seikichi Uehara, Seitoku Higa, Choku Motobu and Shigeru Nakamura among others. Shoshinkan did have some photos of this posture on his blog spot, but they seem to have disappeared recently.

This very same posture, which I think we are both referring to: 'Being the Kamae used in other contexts' in which there is a push off the balls of the feet and both hands can perform strikes, or even a double block, whilst there is also a front kick using the front leg.

Regards

Chris Norman


Edited by Gesar (10/26/07 03:56 PM)

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#355064 - 10/26/07 09:36 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
I've never heard the fist-at-elbow kamae referred to as anything but "kamae". I've been told it is just a variation on motode, which it is if one arm is rotated in so the fist touches the other elbow. I'm aware that other Okinawan masters used this position, so it doesn't seem to be anything unique to udunti.

The way you describe it used is basically correct in that both fists are used to simultaneously strike and block. The attacking partner adopts this kamae in sparring.

However, sensei only uses this kamae when instructing. I've never seen him use it in free sparring and I've never seen our shihan use it at all. More advanced practitioners seem to prefer open-hand techniques and waza, as mentioned in Mark Bishop's Okinawan Karate.

This can be seen in the kata as well, where progression is made from closed-fist to open-hand. For example, kasshinde 5 is all open-hand, as is much of me-oto-te.

It just struck me that not only might this be essential to the Ti style, but also that perhaps the kata used today in udunti are designed to help practitioners of karate adapt (or unlearn?) what they have been taught by starting (in motode 1 and kasshinde 3) from familiar forms. This would make sense, since most people today come to udunti after other studies. If we take the history of udunti at face value, kamae and some aspects of the kata would have been unnecessary if the student had only been taught udunti from childhood.

Anyway, in udunti sparring, any of the arm positions from the kata are used--always both arms. There's never any blocking with one hand extended and the other at the body, like I have seen in some karate. We get yelled at for that! If one arm blocks, the other has to be attacking at the same time.
As you say, the forward leg is used to kick, block kicks, or trip the opponent.

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#355065 - 10/27/07 05:10 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Sorry to double post on myself, but I promised to get some answers, which I failed to do because sensei was preoccupied with preparations for our enbu in two weeks. Promise I will keep looking into stuff.

Also been looking at things available mostly on youtube, and I can understand why people kind of rag on the one of Uehara sensei in the cowboy hat, just like the responses to the videos in the Bunkai methods thread in this forum. In his defense, he was probably in his 80s or 90s when it was made, but the attackers do go a little overboard with the reactions...

All I can say is that in actuality I think we train pretty hard and real. I think Motobu-ryu Udunti would do good to get some more clips up that are more representative of how people practice, but perhaps there are reasons not to as well, as I mentioned before.

We did a bunch of 3 vs. 1 sparring with sensei today, and in this we are supposed to aim for the throat or face with our punches and not pull them. Of course, no one ever landed one on him and we were each brought to the ground in turn, and not always gently. This happens in the round, so it is rather dancelike, as sensei is constantly turning to face a new attacker (or throw one into the other) while remaining calm and composed.

From talking to sensei, I know he did karate for years before switching to udunti and also was perhaps a little hotheaded in his youth. Let's just say I think he knows the value that some techniques can have if violence is unavoidable.

Sometimes I feel like I am blathering on and my posts are too long, but I also kind of feel like someone has to stand up for udunti because it is not so well known and there are a lot of misconceptions about it.

I hope people reading this thread find it interesting. I'd also like to hear from other people who have studied udunti in Okinawa to see if their experiences jive with what I've been saying. No one should regard me as an expert on these matters!

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#355066 - 10/27/07 05:45 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
I also made a mistake in an earlier post. Uehara Kenji is kaicho (president) of the Motobu organization. Ikeda shihan is rijicho, or director.

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#355067 - 10/27/07 08:20 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Chofukainoa,
The common thing with that Kamae, is that it is very old and is therefore representative of pre-war Okinawan martial arts, as you say it is in no way unique to Udun Ti, the uniqueness is in the way that it is used with the underlying body dynamics in Udun Ti and other Ti (i.e. Bugeikan) which also includes, as you say open hand techniques such as the use of a particular form of Nukite where the thumb plays an important part.

You make some very good and what appear to be valid points about kata in Udun Ti and its reason being to help Karateka unlearn/adapt to Udun Ti, I have heard this said before and it does seem a very likely explanation, certainly the Moto di Sanchin is very different from various other Sanchin's and according to Mark Bishop was in order to get rid of some karate habits.

The film material that is available of Seikichi Uehara on youtube is made up mostly of extracts from videos that were made, when as you say Seikichi Uehara is in his 80's and 90's, in my view these are only show case material to publicise the art and preserve some public record, they do not in anyway show the subtleties of Udun Ti, which as you are obviously aware, cannot be appreciated without actual practise.

What would be interesting to see would be Seikichi Uehara in his younger days when he demonstrated Motobu Udun Ti in Okinawa of which there are some photos, but so far no videos that have been made publicly available.

There are only a handful of people who have trained in Motobu Udun Ti in Okinawa for any length of time. See this thread for some names of people who have studied Udun Ti http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e#Post15938290.

Apart from these there are people within Shian Toma's (who trained with Uehara) organisation that have trained in Go Ten Te there at Toma Sensei's Seidokan Dojo. The only additions that I can make to Mike Powell's post are Jody Paul, who is also Seidokan and trained directly with Uehara as did a Robert Bryner of Los Angeles.

There is also a Kodokai group on Rhode Island have been making some visits to a Motobu Udun Ti dojo in Okinawa and training with Takeo Miyagi Sensei as well during the last couple of years.

Joe Swift has also done some training in the Sakon Ryu line of Kanenori Sakon and does occassionally post on these forums.

Personally I dont think that you are blathering on in your posts, I think that standing up for Udun Ti and making an effort to deal with the misconceptions is an honorable thing to do.

Regards

Chris Norman
P.s. I will PM you some details of how you may be able to get in touch with people that trained in Udun Ti in Okinawa

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#355068 - 11/06/07 06:16 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
In Testuhiro Hokama's book 'History and Traditions of Okinawan Karate', discussing the origins of martial arts in Okinawa, there is a reference to ti and Okinawan folklore dance.

Quote:


In addition to the influence of several style, other, non-martial arts are believed to have fuelled the evolution of Karate and Kobudo.
An interesting note concerning this assimilation process is that elements of a style of ancient native Okinawan dance 'mekata' (literally, 'way of dancing') and specifically, a dance form known as 'ti mai', were intigrated into this hybrid system....





In the book a mr. Shiroma is demonstrating classical ti postures.
At the end of the book, 2 westeners and a female oriental are displaying dance and ti postures with their application. Some of these postures I recognise also in karate kata.

Tetsuhiro Hokama is a top Goju-ryu instructor and Kobudo practitioner and researcher but also the propriator of the only Karate museum on Okinawa.


Edited by CVV (11/06/07 06:17 AM)

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#355069 - 11/06/07 07:08 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: CVV]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
CVV,
Yes I am aware of the book, page 29 shows Mr Shiroma in a classical Ti posture with the quote above the picture, I am also aware that Mr. Shiroma (who has trained in Motobu Udun ti) has been known to perform Ti moves to the accompaniment of the Okinawan Sanshin. The section at the end of the book to which you refer, with the pictures, starting on page 137 makes reference to Okinawan Folk Dances rather than the 'classical' court dances that are often mentioned in relation to Udun Ti.

There is also another reference to dance which may be of interest, this time in Matsuo Kanenori Sakon's book The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu Translated by Joe Swift on page 131 which states:

'...on either side of the Ocean, no matter whether East or West, one can find this graceful, flowing movements in the various dances. Not only in the ancient Ryukyu buyo (Okinawan Dance) but also in Western dance one can apply the techniques of Koneri di [Twisting hand] and Oshi-di [Pushing hand]to defeat an opponent'.

On Pages 132 - 137 are shown photographs of Tokuhira Yuriko Sensei, who is described as a Western dance specialist, demonstrating western ballroom dancing with Udun Ti applications. This is intended to introduce the techniques of Mai no te through Western Dance. Mai no te is part of Bu no Mai (Martial Dance) and it is stated that the movements depicted here if done holdinga sword in each hand become Uzumaki no Ken (whrlpool sword) and Tatsumaki no Ken (Tornado sword).

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355070 - 11/07/07 06:43 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Thanks to Gesar for the message and information.

I've been really busy leading up to the enbu we had on Sunday. It was extremely interesting, but I was in a daze for most of it because i was so nervous i had only slept about 2 hours the night before! But i did well and even earned a compliment from the shihan of a sister dojo.

There were both udunti and motoburyu kenpo groups there, and I have to say I don't really understand the naihanchi kata the kenpo groups do, probably because no one showed how to use it in fighting. The udunti dojo made a point of always following up their kata demonstration with fighting demonstrations. I think a lot of people would find the recording of the proceedings very interesting.

Anyway, some follow-up on this thread:
Sensei also says that udunti has no kata, so how is that for confusing? Basically, i think what he means is that what we call "kata" are just fighting moves strung together for ease of practice and learning. They are never meant to be used "as is" and the underlying principles are always supposed to be paramount (but isn't that the case in karate as well? or it should be). In fact, Shihan has often said that the order of moves in our kata is of no importance. In fact, we often do training where the kata are altered in some way.

Sensei says that when learning of udunti was only being transmitted one-to-one, there were no names for techniques, just "do this" and "now do like this".

He says that things started to be named only in the early Showa Period (1920s/30s) when Okinawan fighting arts were being introduced to mainland Japan. Udunti kata seem to have been formalized sometime between then and the 70s/80s when Uehara sensei finally authorized the establishment of udunti dojo on the japanese mainland.

Turns out Ikeda shihan has also written a number of articles in Japanese, so once I read those, I may have some better information.

Again, I find it hard to explain these things well since i am really just a beginner. I'd just like to caution again that no one make any judgements about udunti until really checking it out.

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#355071 - 11/08/07 05:23 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Hello Chofukainoa,

Naihanchi Kata is an old Shorin Ryu training Kata, it used to be the first Kata learnt before the Pinan's/Heians were introduced by Ankoh Itosu for schools karate. Naihanchi teaches specific basics relevant to Shorin Ryu like stepping, hip movement and basic strikes. The Kata was a favourite of Choyu Motobu's Brother, Choki Motobu and it does has applications, which are practised by the Motobu Kempo Group. There are a number of variations of the Kata, including a Ti (di) version still practised, though this is different from the Motobu Udun Ti line which does not practice it as part of what came from Choyu Motobu to Seikichi Uehara.

As for the Embu, yes I am sure that many, including myself, would find a recording of the proceedings very interesting.

Interesting what you say about Kata, I believe that I may have mentioned in an earlier post, quoting Seikichi Uehara, that the order of moves in Motobu Udun Ti Kata was not important and that these could be changed.

I must admit that often I wonder how much influence Seitoku Higa of the Bugeikan had on the development of the Motobu Udun Ti Kata, given the close relationship between these two men.

What you say about Karate Kata, at least in many of the older Okinawan styles rings true, Kata was often developed for a specific individual after the basic pattern was learnt. Much of Okinawan Karate and hence other martial arts, such as Ti, were as you say taught on a one to one basis often in small groups of people.

You mentioned Ikeda Shihan, I assume that you mean Ikeda Moritoshi, if so you may be interested to know that in 1998 he published a book called Scientific reserach into Ryukyu Oke Hiden Bujutsu Motobu Udundi.

As regards the dance and Udun di issue:

Uehara stated in 1992 'One thing that I am sure of is that Bujutsu and dances, which are precious assetts of Okinawan people, developed independently'(Uehara 1992 Bu No Mai)

In 1994 he stated that: 'When I talk about dances, I mean womens dances only. This is because the hand movements in female dances are similiar to sword fighting....you cannot find such movements in ordinary karate at all' (Uehara 1994 September).

Regards

Chris Norman


Edited by Gesar (11/08/07 05:24 PM)

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