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#355152 - 02/07/08 07:46 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Rascal]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
I haven't seen any side-knotted sashes. Obi like that appear in old paintings and drawings, though. We only have white, brown, and black karate obi. The dan wear colored dogi sometimes though, like dark blue or olive green, but only for enbu.

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#355153 - 02/07/08 08:11 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yes indeed, thankyou for your efforts here.

Interesting stuff.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#355154 - 02/08/08 05:39 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Rascal]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Dennis,
Those Bugeikan Obi's tied on the side seem to have appeared in the 1990's as they were not present back in the 1970's at all, so it is possible that they are a Bugeikan Seido thing. It would also seem that it is only Blue sashes that are tied to the side like that. Other film material shows standard Obi for white, brown and Black Belts worn in the typical Karate manner.

As regards the different use of footwork, stances and body movement in the Bugeikan material is in all probability from Bushi Takemura, as similiar movements are to be found in the classical kata of that line. However how well this stuff is performed now in comparison to the original is of course open to question. Given that the ingredients of Seido are a bit diverse and it seems to have infilitrated everything else I think if there ever was any Udun Di there it has been lost in the soup.

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355155 - 02/08/08 09:50 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:


Those Bugeikan Obi's tied on the side seem to have appeared in the 1990's as they were not present back in the 1970's at all, so it is possible that they are a Bugeikan Seido thing. It would also seem that it is only Blue sashes that are tied to the side like that. Other film material shows standard Obi for white, brown and Black Belts worn in the typical Karate manner.






Interesting. Ed Parker American Kenpo is the only other karate style I know of that uses side-knot belts. Technically in EPAK, everyone below the highest rank at the school (ie; master or visiting master) is supposed to wear their belt knots to the side - men to the left, women to the right. Many EPAK schools do not follow that, however. Supposedly this came from Chinese traditions, although some suspect it was from Mormon teachings.

FWIW.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#355156 - 02/09/08 04:17 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: MattJ]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Here's a photo of Motobu Choki with a side-knotted obi. It's not a stiff, modern karate obi, either.
http://motobu-ryu.org/kenpowaza.aspx

It's funny that this subject came up because just today my sensei told a woman in our dojo who recently found out she was pregnant to find a soft cloth obi to wear instead. He said that he actually thought wide, soft obi (which were originally for kimono) are better because they wrap closer and tighter for support. But I can't imagine us switching to such obi because they would stand out too much!

It would be interesting to try in private and see the difference, though.

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#355157 - 02/10/08 01:04 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: ThunderboltLotus]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
I think I found the reference in Uehara's book about Motobu Choyu having "divine inspiration", but if so, I believe that interpretation to be based on a mistranslation.

Here's a translation from this site:
http://www.sakuratakekan.org/escuelas/motobu/motobu_ingles.htm

"Choyu Sensei always said that the "techniques of the Ryukyu king," in other words, Motobu Udundi, are a manifestation of the divine. I sparred with Choyu Sensei many times during my training, but I could never manage to touch him, even when he was seventy years old. He certainly did seem to possess divine skill."

To be fair, I think this may have been translated into Spanish and then English...not sure.

Anyway, the term that is being translated as "manifestation of the divine" and "divine skill" is kamiwaza . Actually, this means something more like phenomenal, marvelous, extraordinary, or even superhuman.

Hence, I would translate the passage like this:

"Choyu sensei always said that the waza of the Ryukyu kings was extraordinary...I was not able to touch him in training even when he was 70...He possessed a phenomenal number of waza ." (Or maybe, "a phenomenal/superhuman amount of skill"?)

I would say the same thing about Ikeda shihan now without meaning for it to imply divine inspiration.

Uehara does go on to say that he thought Choyu sensei would have been able to handle a number of opponents without injuring them, but does not clearly say he saw him do so himself.

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#355158 - 02/19/08 05:41 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Chofukainoa,
The Sakurataken site quoted above is that of Boulahfa Mimoun, who is part of the Seidokan organisation of Shian Toma. I think that the way you that you have translated kamiwaza is most probably correct and does not imply divine, the site was I believe translated as you say from Spanish into English.

Anyway you seemed to imply in an earlier post that Bu No Mai has been translated at some point, do you have any further details of this?

I am reliably informed that in the Japanese edition of Bu No Mai that between pages 86 - 91 Seikichi Uehara's discusses something about his time in the Phillipines from 1926. It states that he settled at a community called Karinan near a Japanese school called Karinan Shogakko. Whilst there he apparently trained with an Okinawan in Go Ten Te and another Okinawan in Tode, a Japanese gentleman with whom he sparred regularly and later he apparently came into contact with Chinese martial arts there.
Do we have any idea who these Okinawans were?
Which Chinese system that Uehara came into contact with there? (I assume it was either Kun Tao or Ngo Cho Kun).

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355159 - 02/19/08 07:37 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Oh, you know, i thought an english version of Bu no Mai was available for some reason...maybe because i had seen translations like the one on the website i referenced and other people had made references to having read it. But looking around more, i guess i was mistaken.

That could explain a lot of the misconceptions that wouldn't be out there if people could just pick up a reliable translation!

I've still got the last two of Uehara's five points to put up here (i have to check with my sensei on them). Then i will take a close read at the passage you asked about. I have heard stories about Uehara sensei's time in the Philippines, but not anything about who he might have trained with there.

I don't see any clear connection to Kun Tao (also known as Silat??)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWhsb-DAEUQ
or Ngo Cho Kun
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5392132614120064416

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#355160 - 02/20/08 05:51 PM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: chofukainoa]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Chofukainoa,
I did wonder whether there was a translation of Bu no Mai, as I had not come across one, I think you are right, a reliable translation would in all probability get rid of many of the misconceptions. A project for the future perhaps?

Anyway; Yuk, that Kun Tao modern tournament stuff was not what I meant by Kun Tao, a Hokkien word used to describe various Chinese fighting systems which embrace both empty hand and weapons techniques. The term simply means Fist way. Silat is a separate art. although it is often regarded as the core of many native Indonesian fighting forms, it is distinguishable from Kun Tao, though these days there is some fusion of styles. This video is perhaps nearer to the type of stuff I was referring to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFr13NvpFrg

As for Ngo Cho Kun it first appeared in the Phillipines in 1935 and it would appear that much reorganising of the style may have taken place there shortly after. Originally the style is from Fukkien province in China and consisted of a mix of Peho (White Crane) Koa Kun (Monkey Boxing) Tai Cho (Grand ancestor Boxing) Lohan (Internal Buddhist Boxing) and Tat Chun ( Tamo's Iron Body Training) it also does a Kata that is called Sam Chien which is a form of Sanchin Kata. I suspect that Ngo Cho Kun is probably the least likely, but then the Sanchin in Udun Di makes it a possibility, unless it came from Kanii Uechi who was an associate of Choyu Motobu who Seikichi Uehara once met on the mainland and delivered a letter to from his teacher. It is of course equally plausible that the Sanchin came from the Kenyu Kai where Choyu Motobu was a Supervisor and Shihan.

The characteristics of Ngo Cho Kun as a system are however as shown in the video link you posted. However there is little doubt that Ngo Cho Kun in the 18th and 19th Century exerted some influence on Okinawan Martial Arts due to the Fukkien basis of the style and trade between Fukkien and Okinawa.

Regards

Chris Norman

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#355161 - 02/28/08 10:30 AM Re: Udundi Kata Anyone? [Re: Gesar]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Here's number four:

"From the rokushaku-bo, double short bo, sai, double nuuchiku, uchi-bo, toufa, ueiku and jo to yamagatana, banto, double-bladed spear, naginata and sword: if you practice their waza as if it were a matter of life or death, you will be able to use them effectively in a real battle as well. The secret of winning in one blow is the essence of Motobu udundi."

I did a bit of paraphrasing after the list of weapons...that's the gist of it.

"Winning in one blow" is probably more central to udundi than any specific form (note there are no mention of kata in any of the translations). It's what really has been confounding an experienced karateka who has recently joined our dojo. The combined (sometimes in one limb) block/attack or attack/block is carried over from bare hand techniques to weapons. The limb extension and narrow ball-of-foot-stance is really what makes much of it physically possible.

I also realized these are not from "Bu no Mai", but from Ikeda shihan's book. I got a photocopy of the former from my sensei, who added parts of the latter at the end. However, the parts I have been translating are attributed directly to Uehara sensei. There are also a number of the poems Uehara said he received from Motobu Choyu and memorized. Apparently, the original scroll was more like a parting letter, and did not contain illustrated details of secret techniques. At that time, it was assumed that transmission of the Motobu arts within the family had already been accomplished.

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