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#354545 - 08/03/07 01:22 PM How practical is training weapons now days?
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How practical is training Filipino/Indo weapons now days? Is it just tradition or is it practical. I know how deadly a knife can be hut really how often would there be a chance or would you want to esculate the encounter to DEADLY FORCE?

Understand I think stick and knife training is great but how often do you think you would use it in a encouter. Unless you lived in the worst part of town and even then you don't want to bring a stick or a knife to a gun fight.

Right?
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#354546 - 08/04/07 11:26 AM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
idaho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 5
Hi Neko,

I have have asked myself the same questions so I hope my answers don't sound too flippant. I am just "brainstorming" with you, not against you. It must be said that I have wrestled (no pun intended) with the same questions in regards to bjj as well as. I mean first off, what are the chances I am going to be involved in a physical confrontation period? Honestly, almost zero....For me at least, someone would have to flat out attack me or my family. Is a stranger coming out of nowhere and attacking you a deadly situation? Of course it is, it is not you escalating the situation, it is your perception of an imminent physical threat. What do you think? What sort of situation are you thinking of where you would need some martial skills, but not weapons skills? Talking with you could help focus my own thoughts on it as well, thx. Mike

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#354547 - 08/04/07 11:43 AM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: idaho]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I think Idaho has the right idea. Very few of us practice with the intent of putting these skills to actual use. Really self defense nowadays is probably going to require firearms, if anything.

I practice for enjoyment, comraderie and fitness. I do practice with a mind to utility - in the context of the training itself.

I don't train weapons, though.
_________________________
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#354548 - 08/04/07 01:10 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
KJ63 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Midwestern U.S.
It is a good question, and I would have to agree with the rest of them. I've studied FMA for 20 years, and although I have done full contact stick fighting, I don't plan on ever being in a fight using a machete, bolo or borong, which is the literal translation of the art.
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#354549 - 08/04/07 01:15 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: KJ63]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I guess I would say the chances arent very high, but for the very unlucky ones they probably will have a few encounters where they do have to implement the techniques they learn.

And in terms of stick and knife fighting many of those techniques can carry over to your barefists, so it'll help you out in a fist fight if not in a knife fight and even more rare a stick fight.
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#354550 - 08/04/07 03:06 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't train weapons because I feel it's not practical to do so. I WILL train against weapons from time to time but I feel that has limited utility as well. Just my opinion.

If by training weapons you mean, going to the pistol range, thats another story. If you're just firing at static targets though, you're still not really doing yourself much good. If you want to train gun fighting for self-defense, it needs to be CLOSE RANGE COMBAT hand-gun work.

For that, go here: http://suarezinternational.com/ There is no one better at the craft.


-John

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#354551 - 08/04/07 04:20 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: JKogas]
idaho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 5
Hello John, I have read a few of your posts and I know this..{I don't train weapons because I feel it's not practical to do so.}....is your opinion. Again, a lot of this is just to help me think things through....so, how is training empty hand, including groundfighting, more practical? You have said on a couple occasions that one of the reasons you train groundfighting/bjj is you train for "worst-case" scenario. To me, one major worst case scenario is the opponent has a weapon. If we agree that we are not voluntarily getting into fights, that it is by far best to walk or run away, then the only confrontations we get into are absolutely unavoidable. Who is to say if you will need a weapon and know how to use it in these situations? Nowadays, even your friday night kegger fights often involve weapons, let alone some obviously deranged guy attacking you in the grocery store parking lot. I understand this is just your opinion, but I value your opinion. I have read many of your posts and find you to be intelligent and possess practical common sense, so I am curious and am asking you to go a little more in depth into why you feel empty handed training in all 3 ranges is important but weapons training is not.

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#354552 - 08/04/07 06:10 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: idaho]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Again, a lot of this is just to help me think things through....so, how is training empty hand, including groundfighting, more practical?





Great question! How is it practical? By helping you destroy your own ego so you never feel compelled out of a sense of cowardice to have to fight. If you take care of those demons in the gym (by developing your skill to a high level), you won't be drawn into fighting because of egotistical reasons. So by learning TO fight, you learn how NOT to fight.

Self-defense for ME means avoiding any and all possible violence. Training athletically forces you to deal with your ego in ways not possible through less athletic means. The mind and emotions are then free enough to where you can make more intelligent decisions. That alone keeps you safe. If that's not practical, nothing is.

Now as far as training weapons is concerned, which weapons would I choose and why? I don't believe in carrying because I feel that you're likely to be too late when you need it most (as a civilian). Having one in the home is another story (or perhaps in one's car). Training knife? I'm not into that. I don't want to have to draw a weapon to deal with a weapon (again, probably too late if you had to). If I draw a weapon for an empty hand situation, the stakes have NOW gone up considerably. Don't really want that either. All in all, it's just easier to train in the gym to destroy that ego and make better life decisions. Thats going to do more to keep you safe than anything really. I think its common sense here that if I have to fight at all (with weapons or not), I've probably made quite a few mistakes severals steps earlier. If perhaps I'd not made them, fighting wouldn't be necessary to begin with.

And I train because its just plain fun. It keeps me in shape and provides my mind and body something to "master". All good things.



Quote:


You have said on a couple occasions that one of the reasons you train groundfighting/bjj is you train for "worst-case" scenario. To me, one major worst case scenario is the opponent has a weapon.





That's a pretty bad scenario to be sure! No doubting that. But that's a mostly unwinable scenario as well (IMO). Like I said, I DO train for empty hand vs. a knife, shank or blunt instrument about once a month. Not much more because I would just run away if faced with that scenario. My entire aim is to ALWAYS escape when possible, regardless of whether my opponent is armed or not.

But realistically, if the guy has a gun, you're screwed, blued and tattooed. I won't even train such a scenario. Some may and you know, that's all good. It's just not for me.


Quote:


If we agree that we are not voluntarily getting into fights, that it is by far best to walk or run away, then the only confrontations we get into are absolutely unavoidable.





I look at it this way; if we keep our noses clean and live a clean life, avoiding trouble when possible (and developed a nose for it), we can do a lot to stay safe. The problem with martial arts for self-defense is the almost universal process of training us to go hands on in about every situation. Duh, that's what martial arts is about. I understand that. But in my view, that's a last ditch scenario after every other option has been eliminated.

If we have lived that clean life and still manage to encounter trouble, then we're dealing with a predator. These people will be sneakier. They wont' tip their hands until it's too late. They will probably be armed and with accomplices. There is no martial art under the sun that will even the odds in that situation. Even drawing a weapon yourself at the point will probably get you killed.


Quote:


Who is to say if you will need a weapon and know how to use it in these situations? Nowadays, even your friday night kegger fights often involve weapons, let alone some obviously deranged guy attacking you in the grocery store parking lot.





Weapons are great. If they weren't, police wouldn't have them. They are the ultimate equalizers. That said, here again are MY views on this topic:

1. Weapons will (often) be drawn on you oftentimes before you will have a chance to draw your's. Drawing your's at this point can get you seriously hurt or killed.

2. Weapons raise the stakes of every little shoving match you may find yourself in. I don't much care for that from a personal point of view. There's a story behind this. It involves me personally. I had the weapon. I may share that one later. This is one of the reasons I don't carry anymore.

3. Carrying a weapon can make a person feel superior. This sometimes gives people more cajones and bravado that they may not ordinarily have. They may be more apt to put themselves into more precarious situations simply because they feel this inflated sense of superiority. Not saying here that everyone will behave this way. But if you don't have control of that ego, this can be a factor. It's always worth consideration.

4. If I'm involved in a "kegger fight" (which I'm not just for these very reasons; alcohol + attitude & ego = potential for violence, especially if there are any women present), I would find an excuse to leave the scene when my "spider senses" tell me that the [censored] is about to hit the fan. That's time to grab your stuff and your friends and LEAVE. Then when the cops come, you're not either dead or in jail. Then I get to wake up in my own bed next to my lady, instead waking up next to Bubba, lol.

5. If I go out, I go to well lit places that aren't isolated. I go to places where there are a LOT of people and thus more potential targets to choose from for the deranged guy in the store parking lot, lol!!! Maybe the guy will choose to attack someone slower than *I* am, lol.

In other words, I just increase my odds again by making better decisions. Thats SO much easier than having to fight my way into and out of everything and every place I go to.

6. I many places these days, you aren't even allowed to carry a weapon. So if the only time I am going to be allowed to carry one is on the street, well, I avoid the street. I'm usually in my car. Car jackings are a problem when you're at an intersection to be sure. But having a weapon while you're seated in an unmoving car is NOT helping you out much in all honesty. In fact, seated in a parked car is one of the worst places you can be. So awareness would then be more of an aid than a weapon would be. In fact, if I'm sitting at a red light and I see a guy approaching in my blind spot (because I'm alert), then I'm driving off. I'll run a red light if need be.

Did I need a weapon in ANY of those above mentioned scenarios? No. I've not needed one EVER in fact. I think I can probably go the rest of my life without needing one as well.


Quote:


I understand this is just your opinion, but I value your opinion. I have read many of your posts and find you to be intelligent and possess practical common sense, so I am curious and am asking you to go a little more in depth into why you feel empty handed training in all 3 ranges is important but weapons training is not.





Well, for me (again) it's a matter of personal choice. I train because it's fun. I find the empty hand stuff so much more fun than the weapon stuff because there is only so much "true" resistance that you can use with weapon on weapon training.

Also as was mentioned, I train to develop my inner strength and confidence. In fact, I'm at a point now where self-defense is no longer a concern of mine. It hasn't been in YEARS. Not in terms of the threat in my face sort of thing anyway.

What I prefer to do is teach civilians to defend themselves by learning how to escape violence. In the professional sector (private security or bouncer-types), you are for the most part not wanting to use weapons. If you're a hospital orderly, you're not wanting to use weapons there either, or you may not even have access to them.

Which leads to one more thing; if you can't fight without weapons, you probably shouldn't rely on them as your first line of defense. Again, just my opinions.

And thanks for the kind words. These things I say may not make any sense to anyone else, but they do to ME, lol. It's getting my point across clearly through this limited medium that is the difficult part.


Thanks for the conversation!


-John

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#354553 - 08/04/07 06:31 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: JKogas]
KJ63 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Midwestern U.S.
Very good post John. I follow much of what you have explained, but I'm not making the connection on “training” and “ego.” If you get time could you elaborate more on that point?
_________________________
You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.

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#354554 - 08/04/07 08:28 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: JKogas]
idaho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 5
John, I agree with KJ63, very good post. And, I agree with your post...I have some followup and would appreciate some advice, but I dont want to totally hijack this thread (sorry Neko) so I will start a new one in the general section. Thx

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