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#354555 - 08/04/07 11:26 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: idaho]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ego and training......great topic and possibly a quite lengthy one at that because we're moving into psychological realms. BUT, it's one worth discussing actually.

Another thread or here?


-John

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#354556 - 08/06/07 12:25 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: idaho]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Realistcally h2h or empty hand situations happen more often then deadly force encounters. In the rare chance that you have use your empty hands several situations could exist and just happened upon U. From bathroom muggings, to being acosted by the street drunk or homeless that you deny help to or you help and they want more, From the same person that pulls your car door open wanting funds or your car unarmed, Overjealous sport fans that wants to fight because his team lost and yours won. None of these start out were deadly force should be used, would sticks help definitely. But how close do you think they will be when you peeing at the bathroom stall or when you walk thru a door and a fist coming your way? Empty hand MA is and should be there when you are almost virtually butt naked, not literally but possible. What I mean is when no weapon is near and the chance of getting armed is remote or would slow your counter.

Of course I believe that if attacked by stick or knife knowing the possibilities or getting armed heightens your chance of survival. But I also know that filipino/indo arts 1st choice of weapon in a close range combat situation is not the stick or pocket knife/dagger its a sword or GUN.

So what I'm saying if h2h encounters are less then 20%-30% chance that you will be surprised and be in the involved in an attack. How often would you say the knife or stick offense or defense would be? .005%, maybe?

If given a chance to be armed in a deadly force situation. Lets say your outside security monitor shows you a home invasion about to happen, My 1st option would be call 911 get armed and lead my family to our safe room.

And I'd hate to say it but I would past right by the stixs, knifes, swords and go with the 12 gauge or & 96 40 caliber Elite. I might be crazy but I don't want to be the one SOL, with a stix or a knife in a gunfight range.

Am I crazy? Are my skills with the sticks and knife that weak that I lack confidence in them or does anybody else agree with me on (any that u like r have) firearms as the choice of weapon here?


Edited by Neko456 (08/06/07 12:27 PM)
_________________________
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#354557 - 08/06/07 12:33 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Neko

I agree with every last bit of your post. Well said.



-John

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#354558 - 08/06/07 01:35 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: JKogas]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

Great question! How is it practical? By helping you destroy your own ego so you never feel compelled out of a sense of cowardice to have to fight. If you take care of those demons in the gym (by developing your skill to a high level), you won't be drawn into fighting because of egotistical reasons. So by learning TO fight, you learn how NOT to fight.





BINGO! Reminds me sometimes why I stay around forums at all.

Not only this, but the corollary from your statement is about learning in general. That if ego is gone from the equation, fearing to lose (or your perception of losing as it may appear to others) is gone from the process, and then it is only a matter of taking up as much as you can as well as you can. But not by looking at how badly you were beat...or how well you beat someone else.

I am still learning this, btw.

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#354559 - 08/06/07 02:25 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Neko:

A question asked by most who study "ancient" weapons arts/practices. Those with far greater experience than I will ever possess contend it mandatory for an unarmed art practitioner to study a weapons art.

Weapons magnify flaws in technique, armed/unarmed. The longer/heavier/larger the weapon utilized the greater the revelation ... Weapon study is beneficial use both sides of the brain, develop both sides of the body (ie the weak side)to a more credible developed level.

If nothing else they seriously develop reflexes and awareness which solely by virtue of a weapon focuses us nicely "...yikes, better miss that knife..."

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken ,

Jeff

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#354560 - 08/06/07 02:57 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Ronin1966]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jeff, the question wasn't does weapon training have any benifts of course it does.

The question was HOW PRACTICAL WAS IS IT?

In short is there a real situation that you may have to beat someone drawing you knife or pulling your sticks from your over the shoulder sling;-) and dealing!!

Or as in the past scenairo with all the modern options how many would wait for the home invaision attempt with stick and dagger in hand?

EVEN if they are only carry stick and knives would you meet multiples on even grounds (in egotiscal MA mindset) these Multiples maybe unskilled but vicious and your family welfares is at stake!!!

In the most simplistic scenario unless you had these weapon in hand whats the chance of them appearing when you need them. And would you want to esculate the threat to deadly force? I personally consider a knife as a untility tool that can be a weapon, the same way I see it while camping. If I'm down to a knife for my only means of self defense I'm in deep do-do!! But glad to have my knife.

Theres many benifit to trad weapon training there little doubt of that Imo, but just like a 500hp Sports Cars how practical is it for every day driving? With gas as high as is and Cops waiting around nearly every bush or corner. When could U use all its 500hp without paying a price?


Edited by Neko456 (08/06/07 02:59 PM)
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#354561 - 08/06/07 05:54 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Weapons training is very practical. I have firearms that I would be much more likely to use if my home/family was threatened, but I don't always have them.

Being in and working in Universities, guns are not allowed. I always have my knife. If I don't have it (for some unknown reason), my knife and stick training will allow me the ability to use a lot of substitutes that won't "fire" just because I would rather use a firearm.

More importantly than anything, training in weapons, such as knives and sticks, gives me an understanding and the training to defend against them better than I would be able to having not trained with them.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#354562 - 08/08/07 11:48 AM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Saisho]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thats true and its been mentioned here. But in truth how often are you really going to or want to, have to fight knife to knife?

No doubt in that .005% chance when you may have to, it be nice to have the skills, but wouldn't it be best just to run while he is trying to beat you to the draw? And if he catches you knife fight with him?

Hell chasing you its a good chance he'll drop his knife or can't reach it.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#354563 - 08/08/07 04:03 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
KJ63 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Midwestern U.S.
Sorry, didn't mean to leave the conversation hanging. I was without my home PC for about 3 days.

Some stats that I found that may give a better perspective. The stats are a little dated but anyway:
Assaults from 1995 to 2002, some 8.5 million crimes
72% simple assault
28% aggravated assault
- 26% of aggravated assaults involved a weapon
-- 40% of these involved a firearm
-- 24% knife, ice pick, scissors, other sharp object
-- 23% blunt object including bats, pipes, martial arts weapons, etc
-- 13% unspecified object including ropes, chains, poison, etc

The FMA I’ve studied would cover the knives and blunt objects, about 47% of the types of weapons used in assaults. Obviously training does not make a person invincible, but being familiar with these things may prevent undo stress from overwhelming you, and allow you to keep a cool head under such circumstances so you can act appropriately… by running.

Several years ago I arrived late to a party. This guy was trying to leave but his car was boxed in. One of the cars behind his was mine so I went out and moved it. Unfortunately there was a car directly behind his that no one came out and moved. After waiting several minutes the guy became irate and that mixed with the alcohol he had consumed lead him to the conclusion that he should get his son’s aluminum baseball bat out of the trunk and smash in the windows of this car blocking his way. I reached in my car and grabbed my Mag flashlight. When I yelled out to the guy to stop, he swung around with the bat in a wide arc coming at me. It seemed to happen so slow… I thought to myself that I’ve seen this same attack hundreds of thousands of times. I couldn’t have planned it any better if I had told the guy to attack me with a number one attack. I was able to deflect the attack and get the bat away from him.

On one hand my training had saved me… on the other hand my training put me in that situation, which could have gotten me seriously injured.
_________________________
You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.

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#354564 - 08/08/07 05:22 PM Re: How practical is training weapons now days? [Re: Neko456]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Absolutely, if I have the chance to run, I would. However, I haven't been able to work on my running for a couple of years now and I don't think I would be too good at it. Worse yet, he would catch me and I would be too winded to fight

Forget all of the practicality of it, training with knives and sticks is great fun. Even with just .005% chance of needing it, I still enjoy it.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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