just the fact that you posted, reminded me to take a closer look at the H. Soken interview. thanks. btw, what is your new incarnation 'Unyu' mean ?

Correct Ed. In fact, I personally never claimed to practice tegumi. The fact is it is not about specifically training in tegumi. As americans we don't have the cultural background to do as the okinwans do anyway. However, it is and always has been about principles. It is not about the exact style of grappling, but to understand the principles of grappling. Those do not change. So be it tegumi or submission wrestling, they both act as a sufficient base grappling art. I practice Nagamine's art. To completely understand this art I need a base of grappling just as he had. I was lucking in that I wrestled in HS from 14-18 and I started my karate training at 14 as well. I didn't know it at the time, but I laid the foundation for what I am doing now and will do in the future by making the decision to wrestle. All I knew was there was a connection between the karate I was practicing and the grappling in which I was competing.

do you see the difference in a historical sense vs. applied sense?
The cultural informal grappling of Okinawa = Tegumi.

The base or crosstrain of some other type of wrestling = not Tegumi.


The only thing I've been saying is that if someone crosstrains in JuJitsu for example, it's historically inaccurate to define that as tegumi, even though some of it's core principles may overlap.

The reason why it 'sounds' better to use the word tegumi, is because tegumi/te-kumi is an Okinawan word. and if studying a Classical Okinawan Art, no one wants to use a word that sounds like there was mixing of non-Okinawan sources.

so in your case, your grappling influence is American collegiate sport wrestling. In Nagamine's case, it was likely sumo+judo+tegumi.

in effect, if someone were to lead a class/seminar centered on 'Tegumi(TM)', it might look quite a bit different from person to person based on their grappling influence(s)...as oppossed to the Okinawan folk wrestling called tegumi/te-kumi.

all good stuff as I mentioned, it is what you make it.

how about if I study western philosophy and choose to call it Zen? close enough? (no implied dig, just making a funny)

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Seeking is the answer. Comparing and contrasting in a relevant manner is crucial. Just like in the old days on Okinawa, advanced students should be encouraged to branch out or enhance their knowledge by learning from all the relevant sources available. Too often folks will claim that they are advanced in a system, say like Shito Ryu karate, but in fact their instructor, dojo and ryu were insufficiant to meet their (or anyones) needs. A BB often means squat in this situation.

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Excellent post, Bryan. Good discussion, guys!

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how about if I study western philosophy and choose to call it Zen?

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What would be really interesting is if you studied western philosophy and called it zen!

Yes, but that is karate as a way Oldman, not a fighting methodology. I may never understand it the way Nagamine did. However, my aim is to understand it as the fighting art before he incoporated zazen in the 60's.

Ed, I don't think I that was where we had a disagreement. Did I EVER claim to know or practice tegumi? It was always about obtaining grappling skill for fighting. However, I first had to establish the grappling base that all old style karate men had. This was something I personally never questioned. Grappling for real fighting looks very similar no matter what your base is grappling art is.

Well, this thread started as something of only minor interest, but blossomed into something really neat to read. Thanks all...and thanks Med and Ed.

That's what debate and these threads are for....eliciting some thoughtful consideration from the lay reader.

And Unyu...good to see you back in your less piqued, posting incarnation.