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#354236 - 09/09/07 08:30 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Guys,

this is a good discussion and one im certainly following as its an area of interest for me, but could I remind us all to stay within forum rules in relation to how we communicate in a public forum.

a bit of fisty cuffs is good fun, alot and the thread gets closed.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#354237 - 09/09/07 10:22 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
appologies, Jim.

The main questions I have for anyone is:

1. Did Tegumi survive as a separate and distinct Art? if so, who were the Tegumi masters of the 20th century?

2. Is there any evidence (or even claims) that any Karate style founders TAUGHT ground submission wrestling in conjunction and integrated within karate training?

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#354238 - 09/09/07 11:23 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

appologies, Jim.

The main questions I have for anyone is:

1. Did Tegumi survive as a separate and distinct Art? if so, who were the Tegumi masters of the 20th century?

2. Is there any evidence (or even claims) that any Karate style founders TAUGHT ground submission wrestling in conjunction and integrated within karate training?




First question I dont know

Second question. What evidence is there what the founders taught anywhere? If it was written then how does a person know if it is true or not?

All I know is the more I study the more I seem to see applications in certain kata that have more than one use.
Kushanku. Named after a chinese fighter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTXzrsF0JM8

0.27 on this video. If a fighter is on their back with their legs wrapped around the opponent(closed gaurd position)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nrYaxOqmaQ

Then could the same technique shown standing in the kata video 0.27 be used on the opponent?.


I think it could and more than likely other applications in kata. If medulant given his expereinces can see applications in kata then I believe him.If he can see ground fighting in the kata then I believe him. A fight can be fought in any position and I cant see how all positions wouldnt have been trained.
Wasnt early boxing the same untill rules dictated and out-lawed many techniques?
Then it became a pure fist art?
With techniques lost?

I think this might raise the question of where did techiques in the Eastern hemisphere come from? Did everything start life in the chinese fighting art? If so does ground fighting exist in the chinese fighting arts?

I think so. I cant prove it yet but maybe time will tell.


Jude.

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#354239 - 09/09/07 12:22 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
found something interesting, Jim.

when you correlate these known facts, it comes up with some contridictions/coincidences...

in Nagamine's "The Essence of Karate-Do" :

* written and translated to English at or around 1978.

* Nagamine never mentions the term 'tegumi'.

* He only mentions he was in poor health during his entire childhood.

* He never mentions he trained in Judo or Sumo.

* during his sophmore year (2nd year of H.S. or 16 y/o), he develops a serious gastroentric disorder.

* started training at 17 with Chojin Kuba. then Taro Shimabuku, then Ankichi Arakaki. All are Karate teachers.



taking a look at "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters"

* Translated by Patrick McCarthy. copywrite 2000, by the estate of Shoshin Nagamine. (Nagamine passed away in 1997).

* The forward is not named/signed whose words those are.

* since it's a compilation, it's not clear which parts were directly translated and which parts were added by the translator. ie: Was there a book preceeding the English one authored by Nagamine in Japanese under the same title?

* chapter 14: Okinawan Tegumi. Does not mention he was in ill health as a child. in fact, mentions he was the leader of tegumi among his friends.

* mentions first training as 1923 (16 years old) in Judo. but gives the impression he was also cross-training Judo and Sumo while studying Karate with Arakaki.


Take a look at Mr. McCarthy's website:
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/thinking_outside_the_box.htm
footnote #44, on his use of the word 'Tegumi':
"#44 Originally a plebeian form of grappling popular during Okinawa’s old Ryukyu Kingdom, McCarthy sensei assigned this defunct name to a collection of two-person trapping, checking and conditioning drills he’s brought together from a variety of sources in 1992."


which is absolutely great. but interesting in a couple of ways:
* to see 'Tegumi' first used as a term associated with Karate training.
* describing it as an old and defunct term. Why would it be 'defunct' if Nagamine suppossedly devoted a chapter to it?
* The timing of 1992 is right around the early stages of the increased interest in grappling via the Gracies vale-tudo.


Isn't that coincidentaly interesting? 'Tegumi' being ressurected in 1992, but forgotten by Nagamine in 1978, then suddenly recalled by Nagamine (or his translators) in 2000?
Thats the coincidental part...here's the interesting part:
The translator was the same who resurrected the term 'Tegumi'.


things that make you go, hmmmm....

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#354240 - 09/09/07 01:48 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Te-gumi kumi-te. Same word. Means somthing like hands getting on, translated as fighting. I do not remember who told me that but it was certainly before 1992. And it did not relate exclusively to groundfighting or sumo but more to grappling,fighting from clinch or fighting from where hands could reach each other.
As such tegumi seems to me as a general definition describing grappling, not as some sort of style of fighting arts like judo or sumo. The techniques defined by tegumi framed into a sport format relates to Okinawan sumo. In such way tegumi techniques evolved into Okinawan sumo.
I interpret it as from actual fighting experience concerning grappling, Okinawan sumo as a sport evolved.

M Higaonna describes iri kumi (Okinawan dialect for jyu kumite) as free sparring, without pre-arranged moves, where punching kicking throwing locking choke-holds etc ... would be used. The definition was written in a publication in 1990 so the 1993 rule does not fit regarding grappling.
Karate preferred strategy has always been to fight standing imo and I have never seen any evidence of preferred fighting on the ground.

According to M Higaonna in 'History of Karate'. Chojun Miyagi trained and competed in Okinawan sumo called 'shima' during his high school days. He was trained by Soei Makashi. Time frame around 1905. In that same book he makes reference of one of Miyagi's ancestors competing in Okinawan sumo on an island of the Oshima, archipelago, during a folklore festival. So this tradition was also vivid as competition in the 19th century.

But never in training, there was ever any reference to a technique as tegumi-technique.

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#354241 - 09/09/07 02:39 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, no personal attacks, just stating your inability to read what I write. Again, tegumi as a child, judo and okinawan sumo equals well versed in grappling arts. That is what I said, again, YOU said NAGAMINE was a tegumi expert not me. I said Kushi was due to his expert knowledge of okinawan grappling traditions. I'm not the only one who sees what they want to, eh? As for 5 year olds choking each other out without any formal training. It is you who are assuming this. I have a dvd which shows Renzo Gracie informally instructing his small children around the same age to fight mma with strikes, chokes, and joint locks. Maybe you didn't know this, but this is the best way to teach children. You introduce it as a form of play, but there is very real learning going on. I haven't had formal instruction on the alphabet since I was very young, however, I continue to apply it to this day. As far as young kids choking each other, yes. Maybe not in your world, but some kids play in a very real way which may be dangerous, but it is a fact of life in some areas of the country and some areas of the world.

As far as tegumi not mentioned in the Essence of Okinawan Karate Do and it is in Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters, it probably has a few reasons. First in the 70's Nagamine was trying to promote his art as a vehicle for HIS philosophy as to what the spirit of karate should be. This did not include many of the real elements of karate and real fighting he was taught originally. This was due to the fact that Nagamine was not promoting real fighting in his philosophy. Keeping the principles intact in his kata and then teaching the true training methods to US soldiers who were trained to kill would just not fit Nagamine's view of the spread of his art in the modern world. However, when the 90's progressed more people began sharing information regarding okinawan karate. More information got out there. And I believe that Nagamine was doing his best to set the record straight. It is not the okinawans' way to blow their wad on the first shot. They like to take it slow.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354242 - 09/09/07 03:26 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Ed, no apology needed, just want to keep things on track mate.

It is for sure and certain that McCarthy Sensei made popular the term 'tegumi' (along with his excellent 2-man drills to deliver the practise to karateka, as per the origional art? I think so) via his writings and dvd devoted to the subject, to the western world,

but he didn't invent the term as far as im aware, it's something I will highlight to him as being discussed on this thread, im sure when he has time he will pop over and discuss.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#354243 - 09/09/07 04:18 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
as I stated earlier in the thread, that's my understanding as well, CVV.

the wording of this:
Quote:

Tegumi: "Originally a plebeian form of grappling popular during Okinawa’s old Ryukyu Kingdom, McCarthy sensei assigned this defunct name to a collection of two-person trapping, checking and conditioning drills he’s brought together from a variety of sources in 1992."



Seems to clearly say the term 'tegumi', was used long ago and the TERM itself was resurrected(not invented) to describe Mr. McCarthy's grappling drills which he formed himself(invented/blended from various sources).

Thats good training, but from a histrical view that has caused confusion and likely the reason why people say the old tegumi has survived, and has always been part of Karate. In a historical sense, that doesn't seem accurate. In a training sense - go for it - good stuff!

If we want to talk strickly in historic terms, NOT in terms of 'it works, so who cares'. I agree, if it works, who cares. but this sub-discussion is about the historical continuity of Ryukyu tegumi.

Separate but perhaps coincidentaly connected to that - The only time we find mention that ground submission wrestling and karate were blended in training is after the early 1990's. why? likely in response to the changing times.

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#354244 - 09/09/07 04:24 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, so you mean that Nagamine is LYING about his dead friend's research?

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#354245 - 09/09/07 04:29 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

It is for sure and certain that McCarthy Sensei made popular the term 'tegumi' (along with his excellent 2-man drills to deliver the practise to karateka, as per the origional art? I think so) via his writings and dvd devoted to the subject, to the western world



as per original art? which one? original Gracie JuJitsu?
Quote:

a collection of two-person trapping, checking and conditioning drills he’s brought together from a variety of sources




Quote:

but he certianly didn't invent the term as far as im aware



correct. it says he 'assigned this defunct name'. assigning an unused name is the same as resurrecting it. reusing. recycling. using an unused name to define something else.

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