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#354336 - 09/13/07 06:37 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Ed,

You misunderstood! I was drawing an example of how different translators can arrive at various interpretations of the same document, and yet keep the original meaning intact.

You assumed wrong! What Tuttle printed on the inside cover of the concerns legal issues for the publisher and has nothing to do with “my arrangements with Grandmaster.”

The translation was undertaken while Grandmaster was alive. That the publication, after the translation was completed, sat unattended to at Tuttle’s for the longest time was an issue beyond my control. Many of us were very sad/angry that it took so long to get published and that Grandmaster never got the chance to see the finished work or how popular it became.

I am here in New Zealand right now and don't have a copy of the book with me but I believe that the part of the work that was "farmed out" to Mr. Goodin was not part of the orirginal Japanese publication but rather a section on Zen or meditation, or something like that.

I trust this clears up the misunderstandings?

FYI…

"By 1985, twenty years of training in traditional martial arts [TMA] had left me ---Patrick McCarthy --- rather frustrated by its rule-bound practices, inflexible rituals and cultural ambiguity. It wasn’t that I disliked TMA or wanted to leave it but I could no longer accept its modern interpretation of ritualized practices [i.e. kata, hyung, xing – classical choreographed routines/forms/patterns]. Consequently, I began to search for a teacher, a style, or even an organization that could teach me the original and more functional combative application practices in a rational, coherent and systematized manner. Specifically, I was looking for someone who could -

#1.Use realistic acts of physical violence as a contextual premise from which to improve my skills rather than continue to depend upon the rule-bound reverse punch scenarios, etc.

#2. Teach prescribed, yet practical/functional, defensive templates through which the original habitual acts of physical violence could be recreated and effectively negotiated.

#3. Reveal how such prescribed templates [i.e. the mnemonic rituals which make up the classically choreographed routines] not only culminated the lessons already imparted but, when linked together, clearly offered something greater than the sum total of their individual parts.

#4. Clearly identify and demonstrate where these prescribed mnemonics exist in the classical-based choreographed routines [handed down in TMA] and how they’re linked back to the habitual acts of physical violence.

While there was certainly no shortage of excellent practitioners everywhere I looked, I found no trace of such teachings anywhere in Japan or Okinawa!

Dissatisfied, I began to cross train. Cross training opened many new doors of opportunity while providing valuable insights about both training and life that I had never before realized. Based upon this experience I was compelled to make my own deductions, which gradually resulted in the establishment of the HAPV-theory [Habitual Acts of Physical Violence] and two-person drill concepts. Such findings ultimately lead me to discover lost practices and the essence of what the ancient masters taught, and ultimately pioneer the development of Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo-jutsu.”

The Five Fighting Arts of Okinawa’s Old Ryukyu Kingdom

Ti'gwa: The plebeian form of percussive impact [referred to as "Te" or "Di," written in Chinese as “hand”] introduced to Okinawa from the old Kingdom of Siam during its early period of inter-cultural commerce.

Kata: [Hsing/Xing in Chinese] Southern/Fujian-based solo quanfa [principally crane, monk fist & SPM-based quanfa] routines used as forms of human movement developed and popularized by the Chinese as ways of promoting physical fitness, mental conditioning and holistic well-being.

Torite: [Chin Na/Qinna in Chinese] Shaolin-based methods of seizing and controlling once vigorously embraced by law enforcement officials, security agencies and correctional officers during Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom Period.

Tegumi: Originally a multi-faceted style of fighting dating back to the time of Tametomo, the discipline is believed to have been derived from Chinese Wrestling [Jiao Li --- later popularized under the name Shuai Jiao -- name est. 1928]. Tegumi evolved into a form of grappling and finally became a rule-bound sport called Ryukyu Sumo.

Buki'gwa: Sword, spear, bow/arrow, halberd, shield, knife, cudgel, & truncheon, etc. [The latter two becoming the principal tools of domestic law enforcement following Okinawa's 1609 prohibition of weapons.]

* Special Note: Any and all historical testimony and verifiable documentation [or even one's own working theory] that either refutes or better explains what is depicted here is most certainly welcome...anytime!
_________________________
Kind regards,

Patrick McCarthy
Hanshi 8th Dan
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
www.koryu-uchinadi.com
A link to the past is your bridge to the future
Life isn't about finding yourself -- it's about creating yourself. - GBS

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#354337 - 09/13/07 07:05 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

jude -

Quote:

Therefore it would follow logic that some form of fighting from the ground training(wrestling included) ) should exist in some karate katas.




While that may seem logical, the weight of historical evidence seems to indicate that karate was developed independantly of the entrenched grappling practices in Okinawa at the time. Very little mention of any groundfighting in kata or karate is found before approximately 1991. I find that timing to be very coincidental.

Again, if we are asking that the old masters cross-trained, that is a different question. I studied stand-up (AKK), and I currently study groundfighting (BJJ). This does not mean that my stand-up training included meaningful groundfighting - it did not. This seems to be the claim of some here (that since the old masters studied Okinawan wrestling, that karate therefore has groundfighting). I find this logic to be flawed.

Still looking for pre-1991 documentation of dedicated groundfighting in karate or kata.

I would add that the lack of such does not indicate "weakness" or "incompleteness" in karate or any other art. If cross-training was good enough for the old masters, how is it now seen as weak or impure or whatever?

Kinda makes comments like this seem silly, yes? -

Quote:

Maybe that means nothing for AKK, but it means alot for Matsubayashi.







I see your point Matt but here is my thoughts

Look at the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81N_cZoStBw

What do you make of it?
They end up on the ground. Ground fighting.
Is the history of karate in the kata?

I dont know but I think it might be.

Jude

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#354338 - 09/13/07 07:18 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

You misunderstood!



wouldn't be the first time! sorry again.


one last question as it pertains to translation of said book:

why was the translated version changed from the original 'Sumo' wording in 1986, to the wording of 'Tegumi' in 2000?

Example: book title and chapter titles.

thanks much, hope you had a good trip.

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#354339 - 09/13/07 07:22 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Look at the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81N_cZoStBw

What do you make of it?
They end up on the ground. Ground fighting.





Interesting. We used to do lock flow sequences like that in JKD. That is grappling, but not what I call groundfighting in the wrestling or BJJ sense. If that is what Medulanet means, then I have no problem with it. He gave the impression that there was submission stuff similar to BJJ, which I have not seen.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#354340 - 09/13/07 07:33 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats not ground-fighting, jude. that was taking a compliant partner to the ground in order to get the feel of various controlling techniques.

this is groundfight training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMO-O46ht8w


this is sortof what a groundfighting kata would have to look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQmTVo21oGI&mode=related&search=



back in the 70's early 80's, we used to do 'ne waza' drills similar to this (first drill of the video only):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjumGcLXS0Q&mode=related&search=
defense from the ground type drills. thats not groundfighting either.
(btw, look at that first series of drills, defending from the ground against a standing opponent - then compare that to a Monkey-style kung-fu form )

later in the video, the drills progress to groundfighting.


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#354341 - 09/13/07 07:40 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Quote:


this is sortof what a groundfighting kata would have to look like:




I've seen that before. In the 80's I believe.

Only they were using cardboard instead of mats and they always had a radio.

_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354342 - 09/13/07 07:55 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Ed -

Thanks for he prompt reply.

Hmm, I'm guessing the name change was a Tuttle marketing dept decision??!! It certainly wasn't what I submitted.

I submitted the following;

"Shijitsu to Koden ni Yoru"
(Historical fact & Traditions)
"Okinawa no Karate Sumo Meijin-den"
(The Biographies of Okinawan Karate & sumo experts)

by Nagamine Shoshin

Also, as I recall, there was one chapter detailing Okinawan Tegumi and one chapter discussing Okinawan Sumo Meijin.
_________________________
Kind regards,

Patrick McCarthy
Hanshi 8th Dan
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
www.koryu-uchinadi.com
A link to the past is your bridge to the future
Life isn't about finding yourself -- it's about creating yourself. - GBS

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#354343 - 09/13/07 07:58 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

For the first two years we had mats, then we trained in racquetball courts, and in the summer we usually trained outside either on the grass or a wooden deck.




I can respect that. Train how and where you can. I trained outside for many years, year round.


Quote:

As far as groundfighting I would say that we weren't instructed formally on fighting on the ground, however, during two mans and sparring it would get as intense and all out as we wanted.




In order for it to have from kata wouldn't it have to be kind of formal?

Quote:

Meaning we trained to make our karate work in any situation. If you found yourself on the ground you still had to make it work.




That's the point of training. Finding out what works for you by testing and perfecting it.

Quote:

Although we did do tournaments, our karate was definiately not confined to any tournament rules. I trained there from 1990-1994. I will say that it has changed significantly since that time, you know, student retention and all. We had very little when I first trained, student retention that is.




It's just like that when the students aren't catered to. Karate training should be hard and it isn't for everyone.

But what about the groundfighting techniques contained in kata? What kata are they in and what were they called if they had no names before 1991? Did they just say do this, this is from kata and then give you a name later after everyone else knew?

BTW,
Try not to be so condescending in your posts.

Quote:

Trolling, profanity, and rude behavior will not be tolerated.


_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354344 - 09/13/07 08:17 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks for tolerating the questions, Patrick.

enjoy NZ!

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#354345 - 09/13/07 08:25 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Ed -

The pleasure was all mine.

Please don't hesitate to drop me a line in the future [here or a pm] at your convenience if and when you have another query.

BTW, what and under whom do you study?

Regards

Patrick


Edited by Koryu Uchinadi (09/13/07 08:28 PM)

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