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#354226 - 09/08/07 08:30 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

on page 136 Nagamine wrote "I was a leader amoung my friends and loved tegumi grappling with them." I guess this confirms that Nagamine did practice this okinawan submission wrestling.


Within the context he writes that, he is talking about his childhood prior to any formal training.
But maybe the fact he uses the word 'tegumi' to also mean rough-play grappling, could be indicitive that the term was used as a generic term...kindof like how we use the word 'grappling'. The context he uses it (as a boy), can't mean he took a formal art called tegumi.

So, I think Nagamine is saying there used to be a formal art called Tegumi which blended and integrated enough into other arts (Sumo/Te) that it disappeared as a separate entity and into a generic term for 'grappling'/'sticking hands'.
so generic a term was tegumi, that it was even used to describe untrained wrestling that you see kids do on their own. The kids likely imitating what they see - and perhaps what they would have seen, is public Sumo matches.

That's my general impression.

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#354227 - 09/08/07 08:32 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think Brian's last post was excellent and spot-on. It seems as if so many want to believe in the notion of an "invincible complete style" that they see things that aren't necessarily there.

Before 1993, how many karate-ka did you actually see using a lot of ground fighting? Personally, I never did and really didn't until many years after that pivotal period.

Now every karate school in my region offers some form of "grappling" (as it's usually listed) that they never did before. This strikes me as a bit peculiar but overall I think it's great to be exposed to grappling, regardless of it's source.


-John

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#354228 - 09/08/07 09:37 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
about groundfighting, I agree. I don't think groundfighting principles or training method was part of karate's overall strategy and definitely not in kata (since there is no ground kata, no photos of masters demonstrating ground fighting, no detailed texts on groundfighting in karate literature, etc) prior to the early 1990's. When and if it's mentioned, it's always as passing reference.

however, 'grappling' in the generic sense (very close-range stand-up fighting), has been a part of Karate - although it was taught less and less in mainstream as it moved towards point-sparring - but TMA non-point-spar karate has always had close-range/grappling/throwing two-person drills. you wouldn't have seen it much unless in it, since Okinawan TMA was always surpassed in the media by more sporty, popular and flashier MA, during our lifetime.

of course there are stand-up grappling principles that will work on the ground - but that assumption certainly doesn't constitute 'ground fight training'. it would be like a wrestler saying that the same ground grappling principles apply to stand-up....somehow, I don't think they would assume that.


John, what Medulanet and I are talking about is just in a historical sense -which, the main thing that struck me as interesting is how the word 'tegumi' was used....as a generic term as oppossed to a separate Art.

Here's my take on the whole thing - when people perceive something is lacking in their art, they crosstrain in a skill that fills a perceived gap (or, crosstraining by chance/opportunity and later making the connections).
Karate is no different. forgetting about the historical stuff and just looking at now, my observation is that some might train in a smorgesborg of arts (thru seminar and/or cross) and incorporating some aspect into their core art...which is great - but to look back and say it's always been there just because they can demonstrate something that looks like it could have been, is an artifical recreation of history....IF we want to strickly look at it as an academic argument.

someone who has groundfighting in their current Karate syllabus would have a hard time documenting that they learned groundfighting exclusively by their karate teacher, and that teacher learned from THIER karate teacher, and so on back to the style originator. The reason that would be a difficult task is because there simply isn't any material (books, interviews, pictures, or anything) which one could point to and say: "there is the style founder teaching/demonstrating groundfighting". They could believe it and demonstrate it physically, but they couldn't show it in an academic sense.

everyone is quick to point out, when faced with the lack of academic evidence, that it's not important - whats important is what we can actually do and train. I 100% agree...so then why bring it up and try to make historical statements that don't pan out to be anything more than vague and circumstantial references? The reason people do that is so they can justify their modern and disassociated cross-training into one neat package and say that is the way their Art has always been.

why? because of the perception that "older = better".

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#354229 - 09/08/07 02:50 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
John, it is important to note that the information I am speaking of was written a LONG TIME before UFC. I know you probably didn't practice grappling until watching the Gracies. However, I did and always used it as a base for my karate training. This was in 1990 when I was 14. Some people always knew that you needed wrestling skill in a fight. In fact, the Gracies fooled everyone for a while. They did because everyone, well most everyone, thought you needed BJJ specifically. However, a knowledge of sumbissions (like the ones in karate) and wrestling skill is what you need to fight effectively when combined with striking. Now, if you are no good at striking then maybe you need a more specialized art. However, karate's primary strategy is striking and the okinawan form of submission wrestling. Grappling was never a holy grail like it was and still is for some. I never paid it much mind because in that area I was basically good. I just had to make adjustments when I started rolling with guys who knew arts like BJJ. In fact, I really don't like the straight Gracie stuff. Its not that good for fighting in my opinion. Its maybe just okay, but I guess if you like being on your back with some guy on top of you then its good.
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#354230 - 09/08/07 02:58 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
But Ed, some people, when faced with evidence based on research by okinawans who care nothing of the UFC still are living in Eygpt. Listen, PLEASE, TEGUMI AS AN ART WHICH WAS SIMILAR TO AMATEUR WRESTLING WITH JOINT TWISTING, SEALING THE BREATH, AND HOLD DOWNS WAS WIDELY PRACTICED UNTIL THE TAISHO PERIOD. THE TAISHO PERIOD BEGAN IN 1912. Now, the fact is that Nagamine was born in 1907 and you cannot believe that he studied the art as a child? Are you starting to get it now?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354231 - 09/08/07 03:56 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
born in 1907, and tegumi master by 5 years old in 1912.

if adhoc kindergarten rough-housing is 'studying an Art', then I guess we could incorporate teenage streetfighting as 'advanced subjects'.

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#354232 - 09/08/07 04:05 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, I never said Tegumi master, you did. Please, allow you mind to think rationally and read my posts, it might help you in life. I said Nagamine trained in it. By training in tegumi (okinawan submission wrestling as a child), judo and okinawan sumo as a teen and a young man he was well versed in grappling arts. That is a prerequisite to old style karate training. Got it? Ed, I think you are taking offense to what I am saying because you did not know that grappling was a prerequisite to train the old way. Don't worry, its not your fault. Just keep training hard. That's all that matters, right?

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#354233 - 09/08/07 08:54 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

"Notwithstanding, it is believed that the tradition was not completely unlike present day amateur wrestling where the victor is the one who conclusively defeats his opponent by twisting his joints, sealing his breath, or holding him down so that he can no longer move."




Guys I've skimmed the recent additions to this discussion. From what I can see it is all based off of this quote put up earlier by Medulanet.

I'd just like to point out the part highlighted and seek clarification.
To me saying something is "not completely unlike" something else, is a far cry from saying two things are similar. A tyre is not completely unlike the London Eye, but that does not make the London Eye a tyre.

To me saying "not completely unlike" is saying that there are noticable similarities because to say there are huge differences is unnecesarily obvious.

If modern day wrestling matches are decided by choking, pinning or submission as is suggested, and the okinawan art could only be won by pinning the opponent then that would be not completely unlike modern wrestling.
If both were fought and won in the same way would the author not have stated that the arts were "almost identical" rather than "not completely dissimilar".

This is just my reading of the wording and may be of no consequence but I thought it was an odd phrase to use if your intention is to point out how alike things are and you are addressing an unknown audience.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#354234 - 09/09/07 03:22 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, you are almost exactly correct, however, you seem to know little about amateur wrestling. Amateur wrestling is the grappling art in which the victor can win by only holding the opponent down (by pin fall). So, the quote reads "Notwithstanding, it is believed that the tradition (tegumi) was not completely unlike present day amateur wrestling where (in tegumi) the victor is the one who conclusively defeats his opponent by twisting his joints, sealing his breath, or holding him down so that he can no longer move." You see shonuff, he was describing tegumi as a form of wrestling which amateur wrestling is and the describing the ways a fighter can win a tegumi match. He used amateur wrestling because the style of grappling/wrestling was unlike the other forms of wrestling he had seen/practiced. It is a unique grappling method that is most like amateur wrestling. However, the use of joint locks and chokes make it different. The only similarities in methods of victory are hold downs. Of course, as I said, a knowledge of amateur wrestling would be necessary to see this due to the awkward translation of this sentence.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354235 - 09/09/07 08:16 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
why do people always try to make an argument personal? do you really believe you'll intimidate agreement based on the strength of your insults as oppossed to the strength of your argument?

so now you are saying that playground 'rastling + dabble in Okinawan Sumo + intermediate Judo equals 'tegumi' ?

I think in a historic sense, you've got it wrong.
How you are interpreting it is not how I read what Nagamine is saying. He talks about Tegumi in far past tense when he uses the 'seal the breath' quote you love quoting. Do you really believe 5-year olds were choking each other out? of course not. by the time of Nagamine's childhood, the word 'tegumi' may have been a generic term, as oppossed to a specific artform. similar to how we use the generic terms grappling/wrestling.


However, although tegumi may be a generic term, it could also be a term used for a type of training method within Karate training. similar to how 'kakie' (push hands) is used as a term, except 'tegumi' being a more stand-up grappling-like drill (sticking hands/arms).

BUT, Nagamine, and no other 20thC. Karate style for that matter, ever added Tegumi to the formal syllabus. Goju has always had 'kakie' drills (which now, all OMA seems to have), and stand-up close in fighting has always been there. but on the ground submission wrestling? show me a Karate syllabus from the 20th c or even ANY evidence of that.

In Nagamine's book: "The Essence of Karate-do" - no where does he illustrate submission wrestling or Tegumi as being part of that essence. nor does his formal syllabus mention it.

you can insult me more if you want, but that doesn't help your argument.

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