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#354346 - 09/13/07 09:10 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
A good first place to specifically look for ground fighting in kata is places where the kata calls for being low to the ground or kneeling. Usually kneeling in kata means that you are on top and your opponent is on the ground. In these kata you must look at what the hands are doing. Are you punching/striking, are your hands crossed, are your hand/s chambered, etc. Usually crossed or stacked hands standing or kneeling means a joint lock. In fact, my first attack on the ground is the keylock. It is literally ALL OVER KATA. In fact, from what I can tell the neck crank and keylock are two of the most used grappling submission techniques in okinawan kata. These techniques are usually used in combination with striking. Once you have the techniques then you must learn the proper way to apply them. After that is learned then they must be studied in two man drills with increasing intensity. This is where the actual wrestling training comes. Unlike many demos I have seen you acutally have to learn to wrestle with an opponent to apply joint lock/choke/submission techniques. The wrestling training comes from the doing. Kata can give you a technique and at a more advanced level a principle. For example the principle of sinking with the hips when standing can be applied when on top of someone on the ground and having heavy hips and weighing down on your opponent to immobilize him/her. Now, for an example of techniques if you are the one pinned on the ground Naihanchi kata has the answer for that. Again, like I have always said, this is not BJJ and there is not extensive arsenal for fighting from your back. The goal is to get back up. The crossing of the legs is the key. The principle here is to get space so you can sit you hips out and get back to your feet. And Ed, this one is for you, this I did not learn in any karate dojo. However, I didn't learn it in a BJJ school I trained at briefly either. I picked it up rolling with guys who fight. I like to attend open mats at MMA schools to work on specific karate techniques and principles. I was so disenchanted with the whole BJJ "revolution" I went back to my own roots of wrestling. I got the specific technique from Randy Couture's videos. As I watched them I realized that his wrestling perspective on fighting is "not unlike" my own view of applying karate to fighting. There are similar techniques, strategies, and principles involved. Such as the two on one arm control when on bottom and working back up to your feet. Especially if you understand that when on bottom you very rarely, if ever, want to be flat on your back. Now, and Ed this will blow your mind, think of some techniques from Naihanchi not on your back, but from the side and one the ground. There are many situations where Naihanchi gives the perfect techniques for utilizing leverage to get on your hip, get up, and get outta dodge. However, it was my second teacher who taught me to analyze kata from ALL angles. In fact, I get most of my stand up striking/clinch bunkai from looking at kata from non traditional angles of an opponent's attack. For instance, my application for Pinan kata is not from the left or right side like many applications you see, but the attack is coming either froma 45 degree angle or directing in front of you. This is where the concept of tai sabaki using nekoashi dachi comes alive in Pinan kata.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354347 - 09/13/07 09:13 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Wow. That really is the ultimate black belt test...defending against an attack by a spaceman when you're lying down sleeping.

I like the techniques in the third link, with the silat guy. The drill where he's using rolls and body weight to knock down standing attackers does remind me of the monkey techniques.
Totally off topic, but I just liked that video. thanks Ed

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#354348 - 09/13/07 09:29 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks again.

to answer your question: Goju since 1974. currently train with a private Kodokan Goju study group. No rank, no title.... well, I kinda liked the 'NthDegree white-belt' title, so I claim that.

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#354349 - 09/13/07 10:04 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: WuXing]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that was cool to see. our ne-waza drills were pretty much static comparred to that. We did defending from the ground against a standing/hovering opponent. from laying down, to sitting up, to kneeling. That was the extent of our version of 'ne waza'.

we also had defense techniques as kumite that start standing and sometimes dropped down to one knee, as medulanet describes. however, where I trained did not consider those ne-waza. it was simply kumite with a semi-ground 'finishing'. both of those drills were not considered groundfighting. If the groundfighting grappling range wished to be pursued, crosstraining in what was available was necessary. as far as I know, the only arts available specifically working on groundfighting during the 70's/80's was: American collegiate wrestling, Japanese Jujitsu and Judo. In and around Boston anyway - there was no internet then, so I can't say what other regions had. I do know that I have never seen any picture or text of a karateka in a karate class with a karate sensei learning and training ground fighting prior to the 1990's.
There are bound to be a few that crosstrained one of the ground-grappling arts I mentioned - I think Victor mentioned he found a picture from pre-war Hawaii.

true and proper ground-grappling was not passed up thru Karate's lineage - of that I'm certain. crosstraining is necessary to cover that range of defense. As time passes, perhaps already, there are karateka who always have known karate to contain groundfighting, since they started post 1990 - and their sensei already did the crosstraining combining the drills and integrating it into their karate/MMA class.

It's been a full 15 years since many karateka started exploring the ground-range. It would be easy for a sensei to say what they are teaching it old-school Okinawan tegumi...but I assure you, it's very most likely 'new school'.

and thats not a bad thing at all. people need to change the perception that older=better. The reason why older doesn't necessarily equal better, is because nobody can verify the old is actually authentic or not.

you've learned in this thread that the old cultural tegumi died out. the cultural practice was not propegated. the 'Tegumi' today is defined by whatever the user of the term wishes for it to be. loosely, people generally mean it to be some type of grappling. The reason they don't just say 'grappling drills' is because an old term like 'tegumi' sounds sexier and more authentic. why? perhaps because of the broad perception that older=better. mystique. pride in karate heritage. any/all of the above. who knows.
The bottom line is, if you enjoy doing it...who cares what it's called. Let the historians and geeks like me fight over the sematics.


"we're just trying to get some peice." -J. Lennon


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#354350 - 09/13/07 10:04 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Thanks --

Would that be Higa Seiko-based Goju as passed on through Matayoshi? If so are you guys connected to Kimo Wall?
_________________________
Kind regards,

Patrick McCarthy
Hanshi 8th Dan
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
www.koryu-uchinadi.com
A link to the past is your bridge to the future
Life isn't about finding yourself -- it's about creating yourself. - GBS

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#354351 - 09/13/07 10:19 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes, I believe so...although I'd call it more of a splinter study group. have you met/trained with Kimo Wall and/or Matayoshi and/or Higa sensei? I've only met Kimo sensei once - cool class and down to earth guy. I believe he's been working with Liu Chang over the past years on some interesting material...

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#354352 - 09/13/07 10:42 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Yes, I knew Shinpo quite well and had been a guest at his home in Okinawan many times since 1985. I met Kimo [and his wife] once in Kyoto during a BNBK Budosai when I was rooming with his teacher [Shinpo]; I never forget how surprised he was expecting to see his teacher open the door but seeing me [a gaijin] instead

Some years later Kimo contacted me about learning Happoren kata and I put him in touch with my Chinese contacts.

BTW, I don't agree with your take on the tegumi issue [you've learned in this thread that the old cultural tegumi died out. the cultural practice was not propegated. the 'Tegumi' today is defined by whatever the user of the term wishes for it to be. loosely, people generally mean it to be some type of grappling. The reason they don't just say 'grappling drills' is because an old term like 'tegumi' sounds sexier and more authentic. why? perhaps because of the broad perception that older=better. mystique. pride in karate heritage. any/all of the above. who knows.
The bottom line is, if you enjoy doing it...who cares what it's called. Let the historians and geeks like me fight over the sematics.] but I'll address it later.

_________________________
Kind regards,

Patrick McCarthy
Hanshi 8th Dan
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
www.koryu-uchinadi.com
A link to the past is your bridge to the future
Life isn't about finding yourself -- it's about creating yourself. - GBS

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#354353 - 09/13/07 10:59 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Yet no one has specifically pointed out which move in Naihanchi or any other kata is a groundfighting technique and what technique it is?

There are already so many varying techniques of every move, now some of them are armbars, double leg takedowns, sprawls, and ofcourse, the guard.

Why the need for justification for the crosstraining? Why not just train what it is?

I don't see BJJ folks claiming deadly skin ripping kata that came from rolling on the ground.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354354 - 09/13/07 11:09 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
always two sides to every encounter, and I wasn't there. If you are trying to show that you were somehow 'more connected' - it doesn't phase or impress me. I gave up hanging on lineage, rank and working for privaledge after I realized I just like training without politics or power-plays.

I've had enough of the rat-race in my private-sector professional career - now I actually enjoy my work in the public-sector. Taking out the rat-race in MA, has the same effect with the reverse terminology.

about disagreeing with my tegumi take...which part do you disagree with? the part where I mention that I'm a geek?

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#354355 - 09/13/07 11:30 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
btw, I just found out what you were talking about with the 'karate-sudo' forum reference earlier. Ro-assalt and Gene-pool, are braindead one-dimensional traditionalists. I was banned from their virual moshpit last year when confronting their stupidity...so if you were bashed there, don't worry, Genie always deletes threads to cover his stupified tracks.

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