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#354216 - 09/07/07 05:27 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, I am assuming he was trained in the karate of the early 1900's because he was trained in karate in the early 1900s. This is a time that was described by Nagamine in his writings as karate trained and used for fighting. Karate as a way was being developed in Japan, but karate in okinawa at that time was different. Nagamine also describes karate at that time was proven among karate men through "kakedameshi (a test of skill and sprirt through actual contact grappling/striking)". What type of grappling, I don't know, maybe the type used in te that was described as tegumi grappling techniques mixed with striking and kicking. Ed, your a smart guy, but I didn't think you lived in Eygpt. These are the descriptions of the karate that Nagamine was trained in stated in his book. For some reason you still do not believe he was, interesting. Another one of Nagamine's teachers, Ankichi Arakaki was a great okinawan grappler and sumo champ. However, you still don't believe there is any connection with Okinawan sumo in the early 1900s and the old style tegumi that is not practiced today. Does a sport boxing coach know dirty boxing? Its not included in the official boxing curriculum. They must not, right? With all of the mention of grappling included in okinawan kumite during the time Nagamine was trained in karate, it is comical that people suddenly believe that the grappling they are speaking of must not be the grappling that has been described by okinawan karatemen themselves. And it must be different from grappling we know of today because okinawan karate men could not have trained in ground fighting and passed it on, right? Well Ed, what type of grappling do you believe was used by the okinawan people in contact bouts with grappling and striking. Do you believe these street fight type challenge matches ended when one hit the ground, or do believe that the techniques of te were still used at that time. Remeber, the techniques of tegumi combined with striking and kick which would include joint locks, chokes, and hold downs. In addition, Ed, I would have thought you knew more about Japanese/Okinawan history. Nagamine states that old style tegumi was practiced widely in Okinawan until the Taisho period. The Taisho period started in 1912. I guess all Okinawans who knew the Tegumi techniques forgot them very quickly. Ed, I think you are reaching now.
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#354217 - 09/07/07 06:38 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you are misunderstanding my focus. personally, I do see,train and believe karate and kata have grappling principles.

what I'm trying to get to, is where is the historical link that you says exists?

personally, I don't need an obscure reference in a book to see something. but if you are talking strict history, I'm not convinced you have shown the evidence.

Nagamines books (the ones I've read) do not link kata and grappling in a technical sense. nor do I see evidence of him ever claiming to have been formaly trained in a grappling art called Tegumi.

now, if you want to speak strict historical evidence - don't tell me 'its there' just because Nagamine lived during the turn of the 20th century, had a Sumo friend and took Judo...please tell me you have more than that which allows you to arrive at 'Tegumi'.

again, I see, train and believe grappling is in Karate. but I have never read significant evidence of continuity to Tegumi in a historical sense.

In other words, we are on a forum - take off your dojo hat and put on your research hat. you can't prove anything by 'showing'. and I don't need you to. I know grappling can be integrated with Karate.
What you haven't shown is how you arrive at Tegumi being passed to Nagamine, then to his students, then to you....in words. I know you could probably prove it in person. show me the best historical links you've got in words.

wakatta?

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#354218 - 09/07/07 06:58 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, there are historical references and logic. I, unlike some, use them both. I am both a historian and a philosopher. Lets recap. Tegumi was similar to today's amateur wrestling with joint twisting, sealing the breath and hold downs. Tegumi was combined with striking and kicking to develop te. Te and the chinese chuan fa forms were combined to create Tode. Tode was alive and well in the early 1900s. I will go as far as to say Te was as well. Especially because Nagamine's primary early teachers in the 1920's were experts in Tomari Te or Te from Tomari. Okinawan sumo came out of okinawan tegumi. Tegumi was a popular practice in okinawa until 1912. Okinawan karate men practiced contact matches of striking and grappling to prove their fighting skill and spirit. In the late 1800s to early 1900s. At that time karate training was strictly about devleping fighting skill. Now, lets look at how Nagamine relates to all of this. Nagamine trained with at least two okinawan sumo champions. Nagamine's teachers were participants in these contact karate contests which utilized grappling and striking. The karate Nagamine was taught at that time was strictly a fighting art. In okinawa based on the fighting competitions fighting was considered a combination of grappling and striking. Therefore, karate was used for this purpose. Nagamine, although I have found no record of him studying Judo, he instructed his police station's Judo team in grappling and won the Ryukyu Championships. Could he have possibly used the grappling methods he was taught in his karate training? Ed, this is actually how ancient history is reconstructed. Using known facts, intelligence and logic to put the pieces of the puzzle together. There might be more pieces if the US and Japanese had not killed 1/3 of the population of Okinawa and many if not most of their written records.

As far as obsure references they are obsure to you only because they do not support your hypothesis and do not relate to the goju you currently study. In addition, these are references that your previous Matsubayashi teachers had no knowledge of. However, they are the life's work of one dead Okinawan, whose friend that is also dead, attempted to share with the world.
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#354219 - 09/07/07 07:17 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Med,

I can understand your point of view but there is no clear historical picture. The closest we will come won't be from our discussions it will be whatever the Okinawans take the time to document in their current effort to explain their art, and of course there will be no proof that their explanation is right, it will be what it will be.

In the end it doesn't matter what the history was, it matter what you can do or what you cannot do, by training, by choice or by personal actualized potential.

It is true the war Japan brought to fruitition with the United States destroyed 1/3 of the Okinawan people and a tremendous amount of history.

But the irony of history is, if that event had not occurred, if the Japanese had just contcentrated their war in the Orient and not involved the United States, or if the Allied Force commanders worked out a different solution and bypassed Okinawa and left it just stay there, there would likely be no karate being shared outside of the Island.

For all of the horror of the war, it's reality brough forth today's existence of karate.

And that might have been the worst thing. Would karate have remained pure'er, more consistent with its heritiage if Okinawa had survived? Not shared it with everyone who wants to take its existence for their own purposes?

It's very likely the essence of Okinawan karate would have been better off without all of us.

Now that's an thought to ponder.
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#354220 - 09/07/07 07:42 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Victor, actually what you are saying is the point I am making. Ed seems to want proof just as all other history has proof. My point is there is no more proof of any other history before video was invented than there is of this. All it is is what people have written and our interpretations of those writings. That is why I am a historian AND a philosopher. You have to be to analyze the past because the only ones who know the real truth are those who lived it. And even their understanding of the truth is colored by their perception. Some people pick and chose which histories they want to believe. I guess if your status is at a certain level then people believe what you write, but the writings of others such as Jokei Kushi are trivial and obscure. Now if Ed says look, I need Sokon Matsumura to demonstrate his grappling on BJ Penn while taking a p*ss test, a DNA test, handwriting test, and presenting a statement notarized by the King Sho Ko, then I'll say okay. That is proof I cannot produce. And if he believed the history he was taught in school, but not the writings of Nagamine and Kushi, then that thinking is beyond me as well.
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#354221 - 09/07/07 10:49 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
wasn't looking for that level of proof Med. just pointing out that the reference you gave (Nagamine's tales of Okinawan masters), did not make a case that Nagamine definitely studied Tegumi under a Tegumi teacher.

Nagamine never stated he was ever trained in Tegumi.

What it sounded like to me was that he simply documented a Sumo master's research which concluded Sumo's roots was likely Tegumi. Then at some time in the past, Tegumi perhaps blended with Te. Then when Te blended with the Chinese influences, it became 'Toudi' (which is Okinawan for the Japanese translated 'Tode'). Then the semi-artifical catergorization between Shuri/Naha/Tomari Toudi formed.


Nagamine's books do not have technical explainations of Tegumi, he mentions it in PAST tense and in historical context.

no, I'm not looking for any absolutes, just this:

Name one Tegumi master from the 20th century. one.

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#354222 - 09/07/07 11:10 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
maybe, a better way to think of 'tegumi' is not as a separate Art at all...but rather a training method. Te + Gumi - in one translation could be 'sticking hands'.

Thinking about it THAT way, could make it inherent to later Te as oppossed to a separate art that one 'crosstrains' (for lack of a better term).

If you are reguarding Tegumi as a training method, then Nagamine's ommission of mentioning it as a separate Art, becomes more understandable. If thats what you are suggesting, then I'd agree that the training method of tegumi survives. However, if you are defining tegumi as a separate art, then it's my position that there are a lack of known tegumi masters to make that case.

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#354223 - 09/07/07 11:13 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thinking that groundfighting is in a kata on two feet is what's beyond me.

Karate has grappling, no doubt, anyone can see this.

To say that karate has groundfighting is a stretch, but throws and finishes COULD be considered "GROUNDfighting".

There is no proof that kata has groundfighting, there is no proof that it doesn't.

There is proof in these pages that common sense isn't that common.

Groundfighting can be integrated with karate being a good base for it, we have done that at our school. However, we do not feel the need to make it seem superior because it was "always there." It just is what it is and we do what we do. No justification necessary.

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#354224 - 09/07/07 11:24 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
agreed. but lets say for academic exercise, we DID want to think about and discuss it. I mean, what else can you really do on a forum if not academic or entertainment?

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#354225 - 09/08/07 12:40 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, whatever tegumi was, either an art, a child's game, an unoffical okinawan sport, or a karate training method it was very popular in okinawa until 1912. I suppose that due to its popularity many okinawans knew it. It was similar to amateur wrestling with joint twisting, sealing breath, and hold downs. Can we agree that both all okinawan masters who were in Kyan and Motobu's generation knew thees grappling methods? What about Arakaki, he was 13 when it lost popularity. However, are we to assume that he did not practice it? I think he did, due to its popularity, his athletic prowess, ability in striking and grappling arts, and support of okinawan culture. Now, these are Nagamine's three main teachers, however, his other teachers would have been of the generation which did practice it. Now, we have tegumi alive in the early part of the 20th century. What about te. Now, Ed, its interesting that you speak of categorizing of Shuri Te, Naha Te, and Tomari Te as "Shuri/Naha/Tomari Toudi" which it was never referred to as. There was Te delineated by these three districts and a general Toudi. It was said that the okinawans shared kata, but maybe their te was kept seperate. Then the principles from the different forms of Te (which Kushi established through his research was the wrestling, pinns, and submissions of te combined with striking an kicking) was added to the toudi which was shared to develop an individual's take on his version of this okinawan art. Now, why would an individual decide to stop practicing the grappling in their karate, which is what it seems many are saying because kata which dates back to the early 1900s were not trained for artistic value but for a fighting art. Nagamine clearly states this was the case with the karate he studied in the early 1900s. So, now we have karate masters who are studying their kata for fighting. Well, lets look at their fighting. Nagamine states that during Kyan's lifetime, who lived until 1945 the practice of kakedameshi (a contact contest of striking and grappling) was common among karate men. Hmm, now why would they train karate in the absence of grappling only to fight in contests of striking and grappling. Very strange indeed. Oh yeah, in the section of Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters on page 136 Nagamine wrote "I was a leader amoung my friends and loved tegumi grappling with them." I guess this confirms that Nagamine did practice this okinawan submission wrestling. Oh, it does also say that Nagamine did practice judo and sumo as well in the 1920's. Really, all of this seems to confirm my contention that grappling training was a prerequiste to old style karate training. Grappling was definitely a part of old style karate fighting as Nagamine states. And by old style I mean in the early 1900s. This is the same karate that Nagamine vowed to pass along unaltered. Interesting. Any more thoughts?
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