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#354326 - 09/13/07 11:53 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Ed, you are forgetting that Nagamine's book describes a possible origin of Te as a combination of tegumi, striking, and kicking.



you are trying to divert. I DID mention about karate and tegumi. read again.


I wrote this as your leap in logic:
Quote:

karate has kata in it's training.
tegumi has groundfighting in it's practice.
karate had tegumi. (unproven link but accepted statement)

therefore kata has groundfighting.




can you follow that? do you see the disconnected logic? thats called a leap.

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#354327 - 09/13/07 12:17 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Make the historical connection between submission wrestling and kata.




My thoughts.I presume that the discussion is if wrestling on the ground exists in karate kata?



History is said to be a best guess unless the person(s) were present and then it could have been written down incorrectly. Isnt kata also classed as passing down techniques from years ago? Changes aside, therefore in effect history?

The teachings of Geoff Thompson (if I understand them correctly)
6th dan karate
1 st dan judo
Years spent in the fight game particuler the pavement arena.

" 95 percent of fights end up on the ground and
on the ground is the last place a person wants to be in a fight but being trained to fight on the ground or any other position is a must"

etc etc

If some one with that amount of experience knows this then I think so would the fighters from years gone by who created karate kata or kata used in karate. Therefore it would follow logic that some form of fighting from the ground training(wrestling included) ) should exist in some karate katas. How much there is I dont know. Medulant more than likely would as he has a great deal of experience in wrestling and karate.

Neko

Hi. Didnt fusen ryu (jujitsu) have a great deal of ground fighting according to Kano?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/13/07 12:21 PM)

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#354328 - 09/13/07 12:48 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
jude -

Quote:

Therefore it would follow logic that some form of fighting from the ground training(wrestling included) ) should exist in some karate katas.




While that may seem logical, the weight of historical evidence seems to indicate that karate was developed independantly of the entrenched grappling practices in Okinawa at the time. Very little mention of any groundfighting in kata or karate is found before approximately 1991. I find that timing to be very coincidental.

Again, if we are asking that the old masters cross-trained, that is a different question. I studied stand-up (AKK), and I currently study groundfighting (BJJ). This does not mean that my stand-up training included meaningful groundfighting - it did not. This seems to be the claim of some here (that since the old masters studied Okinawan wrestling, that karate therefore has groundfighting). I find this logic to be flawed.

Still looking for pre-1991 documentation of dedicated groundfighting in karate or kata.

I would add that the lack of such does not indicate "weakness" or "incompleteness" in karate or any other art. If cross-training was good enough for the old masters, how is it now seen as weak or impure or whatever?

Kinda makes comments like this seem silly, yes? -

Quote:

Maybe that means nothing for AKK, but it means alot for Matsubayashi.


_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#354329 - 09/13/07 01:13 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
or try it this way:

let

A=karate
B=kata
C=tegumi
D=groundfighting


A contains B.
C contains D.
A contains C.

therefore B must contain D.
kata contains groundfighting?



now change the parameters, but keep the same logic:
A=soup
B=water
C=vegitables
D=vitamin a


A contains B.
C contains D.
A contains C.

therefore B must contain D.

water contains vitamin a?

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#354330 - 09/13/07 01:45 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, here is an example. Kata has a keylock. The keylock is performed kneeling on your opponent almost exactly as it is done in submission wrestling. Starting to get it. However, to gain the skill to apply such a technique one needs to train in grappling to develop wrestling skill. Can you hear me now?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354331 - 09/13/07 02:03 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
"Kata has a keylock"

but you didn't learn a keylock from kata did you? you learned it from crosstraining. so whats the kata for if you are just using it as an 'after the fact' justification device?

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#354332 - 09/13/07 02:15 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

Jim, the limited groundfighting you train...where does it come from? kata or crosstraining?




My apologies Ed I do not call or class these situations as tegumi practise (however we allow the fight to continue on the floor if it goes there in our free drills) I think I sent you the paper on that?

they come from experience and common sense, for 'when it goes wrong', self defence focused,

three scenarios only -

11. Knockdown,via front ruby tackle to waist
12. Knockdown,then attacker straddle/pound
13. Knockdown, then attacker kicks body/face

the responses I would have to say are from cross training as opposed to tegumi or inherent in the classicals kata.

In all three the focus is to get up and get mobile.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#354333 - 09/13/07 02:32 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually, no, I learned it in my karate class when we were working stand up wrist locks. However, when stuff like that is performed live a wrestling match ensues and things tend to end up on the ground at times. The lock can be continued on the ground. If the opponent breaks the lock by the time it gets to the ground it can be reestablished and pressure continued to be applied. I got the name from rolling submission wrestling. In my initial karate class we didn't have a lot of the "proper" names for techniques. We just trained and didn't look back. I think we called it a chicken wing or something. Can you hear me now?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354334 - 09/13/07 03:49 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
There was groundfighting in your karate class during the 90's...you don't say....

I keep forgettting you are a young'in and were in that karate class still in your teens during the early 90's.

Was your dojo hardwood or padded floors?

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#354335 - 09/13/07 04:30 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
For the first two years we had mats, then we trained in racquetball courts, and in the summer we usually trained outside either on the grass or a wooden deck.

As far as groundfighting I would say that we weren't instructed formally on fighting on the ground, however, during two mans and sparring it would get as intense and all out as we wanted. Meaning we trained to make our karate work in any situation. If you found yourself on the ground you still had to make it work. Although we did do tournaments, our karate was definiately not confined to any tournament rules. I trained there from 1990-1994. I will say that it has changed significantly since that time, you know, student retention and all. We had very little when I first trained, student retention that is.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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