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#354316 - 09/13/07 01:26 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
It was aimed at you, homeskillet.
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#354317 - 09/13/07 02:16 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

But Matt, there IS documentation of the karate fighting contests that included grappling as recently as the early to mid 1900s in Nagamine's Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters. Is that not proof? So I say if you say it is false, where is YOUR proof that this was not the case? Isn't that how it works?




proof:
'karate fighting contests'? what page was that on?

I saw Sumo contests and informal tegumi bouts mentioned - I think the general thinking was karate was not for sport.
not a sport = no contests.
no striking = not karate.


Med, I'm not sure what you are even arguing. Let's get to the bottom of that:

Make the historical connection between submission wrestling and kata.




On page 86 of Tales of ... Nagamine speaks of "kakedameshi (a test of skill and spirit through actual contact grappling/striking). This was apparently common as Nagamine states "During Master Kyan's era" which would also explain how Kyan and Arakaki always got into so much trouble and so many fights.

As far as kata and submission wrestling, well here goes again; grappling training, such as submission wrestling, provides the skill set necessary to utilize techniques illustrated in the okinawan kata, such as arm bars, chokes, stand up clinch work, etc. Unless you know anyone who can pull of such techniques with no grappling skill. I don't. Just as leg and arm strength and quickness are required to perform certain techniques in the okinawan karate syllabus so is the ability to grapple. As we all know, this skill is developed through grappling training. In order for the okinawans to develop grappling skill prior to karate training to sufficiently apply the grappling techniques in karate, youth training in tegumi fit the bill. And similarily the practice was mentioned in Nagamine's Essence ... book when he discussed Chotoku Kyan's early training with his father in preparation for karate training, it was mentioned that he was trained in "karate wrestling" by his father.
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#354318 - 09/13/07 02:25 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

It was aimed at you, homeskillet.




Thus the exact reason I have observed cement like qualities in some of the posts around here, Brian. Or maybe rather than Brian I should respond in kind with another term from Urban Vernacular by saying, Homeslice.
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#354319 - 09/13/07 07:47 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Is there any evidence that anyone other than Nagamine or Hohan Soken mentioned tegumi or other grappling as a part of kata or karate training? My (admittedly shallow) research doesn't seem to bring up much in that regard, pre-1991.
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#354320 - 09/13/07 07:59 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
kakedameshi -is the practice of 'training' thru picking fights. kindof a stretch to 'karate fighting contests', but close enough since the translation might be tricky there. From what I understand, Nagamine didn't engage in that behavior.

As a reality check, let's talk common-sense for a sec instead of book quote truths...
what you mentioned doesn't qualify as a groundfighting link to kata. show me some evidence such as the now common laying down crucifix armbar in kata for instance. how could you possibly be seeing principles in such a manuver while standing up? the physics are completely dependant on using body contact to the floor as fulcrum leverage.
you simply can't learn ground manuvers like that from stand-up principles.

The variety of manuvers found in groundfight submission wrestling follow similar suit - using ground as leverage. stand-up kata cannot contain body leverage to floor technique, if the body is not on the floor. why isn't that common sense?

your only historic link with groundfighting to karate kata is apparently thru tegumi. Your logic is something like this:

karate has kata in it's training.
tegumi has groundfighting in it's practice.
karate had tegumi. (unproven link but accepted statement)

therefore kata has groundfighting.

see the disconnect? but it's understandable why that leap connection WANTS to be made. because since the 1990's there was motivation to force that connection via that leap in logic. which leads to corruption of intent. (ie: seeing kata as taking someone out as fast as possible while maintaining to be upright).

crosstraining the ground range is great - but to force-fit it to kata is rediculous.

people can do and see what they want, but the thing that distubs me from all of this is, Nagamine's meaning being changed from 'Sumo' to 'Tegumi' with a cause to justify that link. therfore justifying groundfighting in karate and further leaping that connection to kata. history changed to suit current needs. THAT disturbs me.

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#354321 - 09/13/07 09:11 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
it's important to keep perspective with all of this and im no scholar...........

however it would seem likely that the art of old karate, ie the one practised on Okinawa in the period 18-1900ish was about real fighting,

by that I mean personal fighting, not battlefield stuff.

Now through my own expieirence and importantly what I have been told by a few trusted Seniors, stand up grappling is a real element of defending oneself, and to a point some groundwork, therefore karate.

so when the art was used for real, it had to meet real requirements, otherwise no one would bother to practise?

Soken and Nagamine Sensei have mentioned grappling (and weapons), under different names for sure, and IMO for different reasons.

Some of my Seniors talk about it as being part of real training. I believe them as it makes absolute sense that a good deal of training should be centered around stand up grappling (and weapons),

if self defence is a prime consideration which in 'karatejutsu' it most certainly is.

karatedo, sports semi contact, knockdown it most certainly isn't hence the perception could be - it was never there in the first place, as this is what the vast majority of us do, and so did our instructors.

trying to be sure of anything historically is difficult at best, but MA history is clouded by exageration, false statements and to a point translation issues and misunderstandings.

I use the term tegumi to describe stand up wrestling practise/drills and some very limited groundwork, I feel it is accurate to do so as it is perfectly logical when trianing in old karate to do so, want me to prove im right historically..........


ok I can't..........

The more I find out about the Okinawan's and karat ethe more I see how indeed cross trianing was typically how things were done, so we can expect different ryu to have different teachings and methods to train, Soken sensei clearly talks about stand up grappling as part of his art.

good enough for me to train, research and present what I do as 'old' karate as when you compare it to most modern practise it is very different, it is also consitant and accurate to what my Seniors have showed me and encourage me to do.

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#354322 - 09/13/07 09:45 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
CVV - There is onother curiuosity in the book 'Tales ...'.
The tradition was called tegumi in Naha and mutou in Shuri and Tomari. Nagamine was a Tomari-te expert.

Thats a sound deduction but why if Nagamine was a Shuir/Tomar-te Expert did he not calll it mutou? Obviously there is a connection in the two fight strategies NahaTe and Shur/TomarTe does have standing grappling even in its katas. But I don't see any groundfight maybe night fighting as in Kasanku were you are face down for a moment but thats a hard strecht to say its a submission move. It's hard sorting the truth out with so many probabilities and no real proof but word of mouth. Prior to the UFC 1990s findings there was not much mentioned in reference to groundfighting submission in Karate (unless searched). Heck there wasn't much mentioned even in Jujitsu about groundfighting as we know it, because of the battlefield risk, the techniques were used to capture and tie up opponent to prepare for beheading, I was told. Judo had the strong teaching of ground submission. But again this word of mouth.


Edited by Neko456 (09/13/07 09:50 AM)
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#354323 - 09/13/07 11:47 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, you are forgetting that Nagamine's book describes a possible origin of Te as a combination of tegumi, striking, and kicking.
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#354324 - 09/13/07 11:48 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Jim, the limited groundfighting you train...where does it come from? kata or crosstraining?

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#354325 - 09/13/07 11:51 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, have you ever rolled and slapped an arm bar on someone? I'll tell you, if I start my arm bar sitting on my opponent's chest and he rolls me over one the ground, not a lot changes.
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