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#354306 - 09/12/07 06:22 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes, both were origionally written in Japanese, one in 1978, and one in 1986. the 'translated' version in 2000 after Nagamine's death, was written with approval by Nagamine's estate. Nagaminine's estate was basically his son. His son hired Mr. McCarthy...which Mr. McCarthy then hired various translators. Then, Mr. McCarthy compiled the translations in the 2000 publication.

so, I'd take a look at the 1986 version in Japanese if there were any copies around. Do you happen to have one?

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#354307 - 09/12/07 06:40 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Sometimes talking to others is like tossing velcro balls against a cement wall. No matter how many times you toss it, nothing sticks.
Cement, it seems, tends to retain it's density.





I like this quote.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354308 - 09/12/07 06:43 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Quote:

yes, both were origionally written in Japanese, one in 1978, and one in 1986. the 'translated' version in 2000 after Nagamine's death, was written with approval by Nagamine's estate. Nagaminine's estate was basically his son. His son hired Mr. McCarthy...which Mr. McCarthy then hired various translators. Then, Mr. McCarthy compiled the translations in the 2000 publication.

so, I'd take a look at the 1986 version in Japanese if there were any copies around. Do you happen to have one?




Ed - I have no idea where you're getting your information but man you're wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off base. I was NOT hired by Takayoshi Nagamine but rather by O-sensei himself [through Tuttle & Alex Kask --- then the Tokyo-based editor], and spent considerable time with the man working word-by-word, sentence-by-sentence, page-by-page at his home/dojo in Okinawa. I did NOT hire out to have the work translated.

If and when you're not clear on any issue why don't you ASK ME before making such assumptions?

Patrick
[At Brisbane Airport]

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#354309 - 09/12/07 07:45 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

EM: 2. Was any of the book "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" your words or was it a direct translation of Nagamine's words?

PM: Except the part farmed out to Charles Goodin [Hawaii...a member of Grandmaster's organization at the time] the translation was handled by my wife [Yuriko] and me. In this regard...all the words are mine; Have ten translators translate the same work and see what different finished products you get. A good example is the recently translated Karate Do Kyohan by Neptune Publication --- contrasted with the long-standing translation of the same work, by Oshima Tsutomu.

If, however, you're looking to establish fault with my work [that I had an agenda other than to translate what the book says] perhaps you might consider contacting Nagamine Takeyoshi -- Grandmaster's son; He's still alive, well and speaks wonderful English.




ummm...I'm confused. above is how you explained it earlier in the thread. I misunderstood the '10 translator' comment, appologies. I took it to mean you had 10 translators.

on the inside cover on the book it mentions that the book was with permission of Nagamine's estate. so I naturally assumed his son was the estate. (since estates are assumed by the eldest son in Japan). also, since it was handled by the estate and since the publication (2000) was 3 years after S. Nagamine's death, I assumed the translation was after his death and handled by his son.

all I was originally interested in was if the chapter on tegumi was a direct translation of the 1986 Japanese publication or not. For instance, will I find a chapter called 'Tegumi' in the 1986 Japanese version?

sorry for the misread of your first answer to the question.

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#354310 - 09/12/07 08:13 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Just curious.

If you guys prove this point, one way or the other, will it really make any difference in the way you train? Or how you feel about your chosen art? If not, couldn't this whole long thread have been settled in one post with one question?

Is
Quote:

the chapter on tegumi was a direct translation of the 1986 Japanese publication or not. For instance, will I find a chapter called 'Tegumi' in the 1986 Japanese version?





Just an outsider looking in. Not trying to fuel the fire or anything.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354311 - 09/12/07 08:56 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: JMWcorwin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
most of my posts mention that this is just academic exercise. no, it doesn't change training at all.

one other curiosity:
the original 1986 book was titled:
"Okinawa no Karate Sumo Meijin-Den"
(Okinawan Karate and Sumo masters)

the translated 2000 English version title:
"Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters"

the translated 2000 version has 3 sections
part one: biographies of Okinawan Karate experts.
part two: My Philosophy of Karate-Do.
part three: Tegumi and Master grapplers of Okinawa.

part three has subsections:
Okinawan Tegumi
Biographies of Okinawan Tegumi Meijin

in all subsections, it makes no distinction between tegumi and okinawan sumo. ALL of the masters listed were known as Okinawan Sumo masters. I'd assume they engaged in tegumi when young, but the sections concentrate solely on their Sumo acomplishments and matches. they are clearly Sumo masters.

It seems odd that the title of the book would be changed. odd in the sense to translate an Okinawan/Japanese word into another word of the same language. The only thing I could possibly imagine is the Japanese word translated into an Okinawan one ('Okinawan Sumo' translated to 'Tegumi')...but Nagamine specifically chose the word Sumo in the first title.

I'll go out on a limb and guess Nagamine's 1986 Japanese publication mainly uses the word 'Sumo' throughout. but as I mentioned, I haven't seen it.

If there is no distinction between Okinawan Sumo and Tegumi, then why in the Introduction section of the Tegumi chapter (pg 136,137,138) does he make a clear distinction between the two?

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#354312 - 09/12/07 08:58 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: MattJ]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

Science does not bother with trying to "prove" negatives




Actually, many theories are negatives and many great findings come from positive theories proven to be wrong.

Not that this has any relevance on the discussion, but I was feeling left out.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#354313 - 09/12/07 11:46 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Sometimes talking to others is like tossing velcro balls against a cement wall. No matter how many times you toss it, nothing sticks.
Cement, it seems, tends to retain it's density.





I like this quote.




Brian, you took the words right out of my mouth.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354314 - 09/13/07 12:36 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

But Matt, there IS documentation of the karate fighting contests that included grappling as recently as the early to mid 1900s in Nagamine's Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters. Is that not proof? So I say if you say it is false, where is YOUR proof that this was not the case? Isn't that how it works?




proof:
'karate fighting contests'? what page was that on?

I saw Sumo contests and informal tegumi bouts mentioned - I think the general thinking was karate was not for sport.
not a sport = no contests.
no striking = not karate.


Med, I'm not sure what you are even arguing. Let's get to the bottom of that:

Make the historical connection between submission wrestling and kata.

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#354315 - 09/13/07 01:25 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

one other curiosity:
the original 1986 book was titled:
"Okinawa no Karate Sumo Meijin-Den"
(Okinawan Karate and Sumo masters)

the translated 2000 English version title:
"Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters"





This is a very valid question. Okinawan sumo exists as a sport and there is documentation to support it. Even some video we saw on Okinanwa TV.
Was Nagamine talking about Okinawan sumo with reference to tegumi or the other way around. The Japanese tiyle suggests the first.

That the roots lie in something called tegumi and that this practice had an influence into the development of karate is probably correct. However the same can be said about chi-na
shuai-chao quan-fa jigen-ryu and more recently ju-jitsu judo etc... . The practice eveolved into practical knowledge about fighting. Te or Di or Ti is in my opinion practical knowledge about fighting.
The strategy of karate is not to fight on all 4 but standing imo. Grappling is part of it.
I've been told (and before 1992) that the word kumite comes from the word tegumi indicating some link to karate.

There is onother curiuosity in the book 'Tales ...'.
The tradition was called tegumi in Naha and mutou in Shuri and Tomari. Nagamine was a Tomari-te expert.

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