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22740 Members
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#354286 - 09/12/07 01:50 PM
Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ...
[Re: Neko456]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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Engineer? lol are we going to start calling each other by our professions now? let's see, your profile says "Security Computer speicailist"....
speicailist, we are all always learning.
-Engineer
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#354287 - 09/12/07 02:01 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: medulanet]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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delusional? - oh I'm definitely that, no delusion about it.
med, buddy. you are saying tegumi was like submission wrestling because you quoted it from a book. what if that wasn't S. Nagamine's thoughts?
sure you could show submission wrestling that you crosstrained into your karate...is that all you need to say it's old-style training? if so, now I can see why MA research gets so far out of whack sometimes.
A seems like it could be B...therefore A=B ?
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#354288 - 09/12/07 02:08 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
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Ed, I said that my karate could never be like the okinawans as well due to the cultural differences. I said I do Okinawan Karate Y2K. Remeber that as well? I train in the principles of old style karate but I don't practice their training methods. I have said this numerous times. I practice modern training methods such as utilizing modern strength training methodologies. I think you are confused, buddy. Maybe we should have a discussion of principles contained within kata/karate. They transcend mere techniques and singular training methods.
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#354289 - 09/12/07 02:19 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: medulanet]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Quote:
Ed, have you listened to ANYTHING I have said. I never said I did old style tegumi, EVER. Please reread my posts. I said the old school karate masters, such as Nagamine and his teachers did. I said an old style karate practitioner needs a grappling base. Due to the similarities of modern wrestling/submission wrestling, this can be substituted as a useable grappling base for karate training. Ed, I think you are delusional.
That was really un-neccessary, med. Is it possible for you to make a point without being condescending or getting personal? What Ed and others are saying is that the proof you offer is less than final. It seems the majority does not agree with you in this (grappling was integral with karate), so the case could be made for YOU being the more delusional one.
But it would be nice to hear facts and opinions without the insults.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#354290 - 09/12/07 02:32 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: MattJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
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Matt, grappling is not integral to karate as a way, however, do you actually believe that a solid knowledge of grappling is not integral to karate as a fighting art? In fact, most of the documented old style okinawan fightings and fighting contests included grappling along with the striking. Where is your proof that old style karate strictly as a fighting art did not include grappling as a VERY important part of its fighting?
As far as Ed, what would you say about someone who appears to be a very intelligent individual, who is unable to retain the information he reads in your posts. I just chose one.
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#354291 - 09/12/07 02:53 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: medulanet]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Quote:
Matt, grappling is not integral to karate as a way, however, do you actually believe that a solid knowledge of grappling is not integral to karate as a fighting art?
No argument there - grappling is integral to fighting ability, period.
Quote:
In fact, most of the documented old style okinawan fightings and fighting contests included grappling along with the striking. Where is your proof that old style karate strictly as a fighting art did not include grappling as a VERY important part of its fighting?
Heh. That is not a valid argument. Science does not bother with trying to "prove" negatives, and the burden of proof falls on those making the original claim, in any case.
I will defer that I do not know much about the documented matches that you speak of. But that does not seem to answer the question of grappling's specific place in karate training.
Should it be there? Hell yes.
Was it there? Seems to be no.
Now are we arguing that the old masters cross-trained grappling arts with karate? That's another question.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#354292 - 09/12/07 03:01 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: MattJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
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But Matt, there IS documentation of the karate fighting contests that included grappling as recently as the early to mid 1900s in Nagamine's Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters. Is that not proof? So I say if you say it is false, where is YOUR proof that this was not the case? Isn't that how it works?
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#354293 - 09/12/07 03:47 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: medulanet]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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med - Quote:
Isn't that how it works?
Not quite. Scientific process allows for anyone to make any theory they like. The theory is reviewed by their peers, and determined to be "more" or "less" likely to be accurate. If the majority feel that a given opinion is inaccurate or unsupported, that theory will be regarded as such. Taken to extremes (as I often do  ), I'm sure I could find "proof" that the earth is flat, but that does not make it so.
Quote:
But Matt, there IS documentation of the karate fighting contests that included grappling as recently as the early to mid 1900s in Nagamine's Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters.
Which point are you trying to make? That the contests included grappling, or that karate included grappling? Seems you are talking about different things here.
Again, are you asking that cross-training grappling was a common thing in that era? Not debating if it is good or not.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#354294 - 09/12/07 03:56 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: MattJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
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Well, they're not two different things because these contests were evalutation of a karateka's skills in karate. As far as cross traing, just as many have stated, Okinawans were some of the very first cross trainers. And again, it is not so much about what I believe, but what Nagamine was written. The key is Nagamine wrote two books. The Okinawan karate I know comes from him. The two books he writes relate more to what I do than any other writings on karate. Its seems like you are in Ed's camp and doubt what Nagamine writes about his experiences, as well as the research of his most senior student, Jokei Kushi.
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#354295 - 09/12/07 04:40 PM
Re: Tegumi-related
[Re: medulanet]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Quote:
Well, they're not two different things because these contests were evalutation of a karateka's skills in karate.
I'm not sure I agree with you there. Unless they were style-specific matches, they were evaluations of the karateka's TOTAL fighting skill - from karate and whatever else they studied. You say that the old Okinawan masters cross-trained, and I can believe that. But it seems to me that their grappling skill came from outside of their karate study, and not because of it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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