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#354266 - 09/10/07 01:24 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I first had to establish the grappling base that all old style karate men had.


No, I think the old style karate men took American collegiate sport wrestling to be more like you!


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#354267 - 09/10/07 01:46 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
in summary of this semi off-topic discussion:

there are 2 types of Tegumi:

1. Historical Okinawan tegumi/te-kumi as an informal folk 'rastling tradition (pre-1920).

2. Tegumi International (ti) - Any and all modern grappling art experience to serve as a justification for finding groundfighting in kata.


meh, I'll leave it at that...

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#354268 - 09/10/07 10:32 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
original post:

Quote:

Is trying to accomplish all this, Mind, Body, & Spirit stuff. Too much?




Since you worded it "trying to accomplish", then I think it is too much, yes.

moral and behavior really sinks in by example, not by memorizing mind-conditioned responses thru ritual and mantra. The spiritual/philosophic/inner growth happens along with and as result of the physical/mentally challenging yourself and finding what you are made of - again, not by memorizing foreign concepts or training your mind to believe in something so your heart can follow. and definitely not by imitating what you'd like to appear to be.

Any MA training, thru the committed physical training alone, can help develop naturally and intrinsicaly all the aspects of what modern TMA's 'try to accomplish' with all the built-in new-age mechanisms and baggage that mostly result in down classtime not training.

Want to spread world peace, Buddha, moral guidance, chanting, sing kumbaiya holding hands in a circle? go to the social and intellectual gathering of your choice after class. When you feel like training, see you in the dojo.

yes, modern comercial Karate has too much 'how to feel good about yourself by following this recipie I've concocted from stereotypical ancient culture' stuff.
heck, I even saw a place that claims 'longevity' if you follow his path he laid out of a mish-mash of new age jargon along with vanilla gendai karate...funny thing was, the guy was only in his low 60's and he was the style founder. not exactly a 'proven' method yet, is it...considering the average person lives to be 75+ lol

geez, just train and then socialize / intellectualize about how the training relates to your person OUTSIDE of class.

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#354269 - 09/10/07 10:38 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

just the fact that you posted, reminded me to take a closer look at the H. Soken interview. thanks. btw, what is your new incarnation 'Unyu' mean ?




Cool. That is a very important interview for those wishing to understand what karate was, is and CAN be. Of course the exemplary is not commonplace, so you get from MAs whatever it is you get from everything else; a little of the good, a little of the bad, but most of it is mediocre at best.

Ed: I like your cynical take on it all. Just be careful not to think that because you don't know it or haven't seen it, it ain't there. Real fighting karate (beyond K1 and knockdown Japanese karate) is out there. It's just real rare. None emphasize ground fighting. Most tend to focus on keeping your two legs on the ground as much as possible (while standing), but some sensei will teach you anything you need to know, all ranges intact; plus weapons, history and supplementary training.

BTW "Unyu" was one of Matsumura Sokon's names. Props to the Master(s) who made all of this possible.

Matt:
Thanks bro, glad to contribute without everyone doubting continuously or getting up in arms. I guess once the messenger is hated nothing they say can be true, even if it is.

Butterfly: I like the use of the work "piqued" . I'd rather use it in the context of "getting one's attention" versus "getting one's ire up", knowhatImean? Still as I know you are a great karate man from an awesome system, any positive feedback from you is appreciated. Thanks...

Any person who believes karate is dead or that good karate/effective karate is an oxymoron, has never experienced real karate. This MMA stuff is the way it's always been in true karate. Well maybe not the venues and constant self-mutilation, but even the modern incarnation's precepts are outlined in Matsumura Sokon's "Bucho Ikko" circa 1880 something. In there it's more or less referred to as the "Budo of Nominals". The name says it all.

BTW Victor,
I will NEVER put myself on vid on the web. Too many crazy fools out there. Plus you have to pay to get a glimpse of my style. All modesty aside I am GOOD when it comes to forms and apps., but then again that's just what I've been told by numerous folks . You can ban me again, but I'll find my way back if I want !

Train hard and smart. Peace...
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#354270 - 09/11/07 01:16 AM Tegumi-related [Re: Unyu]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Hi folks,

Jim, thanks for the notice -- hi Victor.

Okay Ed...I'm all ears; I'd also be happy to field your queries on Wando and/or Aragaki Seisan here, if you like?
BTW, was it you who wrote, "A man shouldn’t have to explain his Karate to anyone....[it] either works or it doesn’t."?
Ed...I may not always be able to respond ASAP...so don't give up on me just because I don't reply immediately...this is a busy time for me.

Patrick

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#354271 - 09/11/07 01:55 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Hi Patrick, good of you to take the time.
I understand the busy part, so I'll cut through...(btw, yes, I did write that or to that effect- and I do believe that our training is our own business - On a forum, I believe that while someone has the right not to answer - another has just as much right to ask )

Tegumi questions:
1. In your opinion, did tegumi survive as a practice/art in and of itself through the 19th-20th century to present day? (not as a blend or a redefinition, but as a practice of it's own).

2. Was any of the book "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" your words or was it a direct translation of Nagamine's words?

3. This quote seems pretty clear from your website, but if you want to comment, that'd be great. Also, any coincidence with the 1992 timeframe? with vale tudo becoming popular and whatnot...time to add groundfighting to karate...was that the thought?
Quote:


http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/thinking_outside_the_box.htm
footnote #44, on his use of the word 'Tegumi':
"#44 Originally a plebeian form of grappling popular during Okinawa’s old Ryukyu Kingdom, McCarthy sensei assigned this defunct name to a collection of two-person trapping, checking and conditioning drills he’s brought together from a variety of sources in 1992."





when you have time... thanks again.

p.s. try not to be *too* busy...you are making everyone look bad.

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#354272 - 09/11/07 03:47 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Ed san,

You caught me on-line here at home...it's about 6pm on Tuesday evening here in Brisbane.

EM: I believe that while someone has the right not to answer - another has just as much right to ask..

PM: My style of thinking, exactly.

EM: Tegumi questions:
1. In your opinion, did tegumi survive as a practice/art in and of itself through the 19th-20th century to present day? (not as a blend or a redefinition, but as a practice of it's own).

PM: No, as a tradition, I don't believe it did; If it has...it's the best kept secret in Okinawa. As described in Grandmaster's book ["Tales...] it ultimately became a clinch-style form of garmet wrestling called Okinawan/Ryukyu Sumo [not to be confused with Japanese Sumo] and quietly fell dormant. That said, I have seen it re-enacted at the odd festival in Okinawa.

EM: 2. Was any of the book "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" your words or was it a direct translation of Nagamine's words?

PM: Except the part farmed out to Charles Goodin [Hawaii...a member of Grandmaster's organization at the time] the translation was handled by my wife [Yuriko] and me. In this regard...all the words are mine; Have ten translators translate the same work and see what different finished products you get. A good example is the recently translated Karate Do Kyohan by Neptune Publication --- contrasted with the long-standing translation of the same work, by Oshima Tsutomu.

If, however, you're looking to establish fault with my work [that I had an agenda other than to translate what the book says] perhaps you might consider contacting Nagamine Takeyoshi -- Grandmaster's son; He's still alive, well and speaks wonderful English. I would much rather accept his word than that of those faultless creeps over on Karate-Budo.

EM: This quote seems pretty clear from your website, but if you want to comment, that'd be great. Also, any coincidence with the 1992 timeframe? with vale tudo becoming popular and whatnot...time to add groundfighting to karate...was that the thought?

PM: Absolutely, but Vale Tudo was not known in Japan at that time. I know because I was part of the Japanese shoot-fighting movement myself. Kakutogi [Shoot-boxing, UWF, Rings, Pancrats, and KI] was very popular during this era and I certainly favoured this style of training -- it's extremely valuable, but only as an adjunct to negotiate that part of physical violence that has long been part of every historical combative discipline.
_________________________
Kind regards,

Patrick McCarthy
Hanshi 8th Dan
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
www.koryu-uchinadi.com
A link to the past is your bridge to the future
Life isn't about finding yourself -- it's about creating yourself. - GBS

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#354273 - 09/11/07 07:39 AM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Thank-you Patrick. About the translated works, everyone has agenda, conscious or subconscious. I believe you do the best you can. If anything, in general, I'd question a reader for not questioning what they read.

I more or less trust your research, but every now and then, I do wonder how some things make their way into print or their timing in doing so. not as accusation or suspicion, just out of things not fitting.

The chapter in "Tales..." on Tegumi (chapter 14, I think) there are inconsistancies which jump out. so much so, that it led me to wonder if the chapter itself are S. Nagamine's words. Then wondered if the Japanese version written prior (pub. in 1986) has corresponding info. particularly on the chap. 14 Tegumi.

It seems really picky, but the part where he describes his childhood and early training doesn't seem consistant between this work and his 1978 "Essence of" book. On top of that, tegumi isn't mentioned at all.

thanks again...

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#354274 - 09/11/07 06:40 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Ed_Morris]
Koryu Uchinadi Offline
Tanmei
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Brisbane Australia
Ed,

No problem...

Agenda? I suppose we do all have an agenda, don't we, you, me everyone. Familiar with my work, the Nagamine family asked Tuttle specifically for me to handle the said work. Therefore, I suppose in some way they too had an agenda of sorts. Of course, I did the very best job I could to deliver Mr. Nagamine's words.

BTW, I looked around Google [Japan] to see if I could find you a copy of Nagamine's book to purchase --- no luck! I couldn't find anything on Amazon [http://www.amazon.co.jp/o/ASIN/4404013493/250-2688092-6541854?SubscriptionId=0VGKXCVY10VEY93X6QG2] or Kinokuniya [http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp], unfortunately, I just recently sold my own copy [see here ]http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/For-Sale_books.htm] but perhaps you might stumble across a copy on E-Bay.

You'll be looking for ...

Okinawa no Karate Sumo Meijin Den
ISBN-10: 4404013493
ISBN-13: 978-4404013491

Found a couple of other old reprints that you might be interested in here;

Funakoshi's Ryukyu Kenpo Karate
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/wshosea.cgi?W-NIPS=9981102016

Mabuni's Karate-do Nyumon
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/wshosea.cgi?W-NIPS=9981102032

Why don't you post the exact passages in question and let me take a short at trying to figure them out. It could be simply that there are two separate books with two separate agendas

Patrick

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#354275 - 09/11/07 06:51 PM Re: Tegumi-related [Re: Koryu Uchinadi]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Patrick -

Thank you for taking the time to answer some questions, we appreciate it. In your opinion, how much mention of grappling, as an integral part of karate or kata, was made prior to 1991 (especially in print)? Just going off my memory, it seems very little was. How much of the UFC phenomenon do you think is attributable to the (seemingly recent) trend of finding groundfighting applications in kata nowadays?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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