of course not. I don't believe Nagamine ever had reason to lie in his works. why wouldn't we believe he had a Sumo friend who had unfinished research? However, the research didn't mention tegumi in terms of Karate. The research covered tegumi in terms of Okinawan Sumo's roots. Nagamine adds that tegumi may have played a part in forming early Te.

besides that, I've never seen the original Japanese version of Nagamine's Tales of Okinawa's great masters. actually, I can't find it for sale anywhere. if anyone knows where to get one, please let me know.

Exactly Ed. Nagamine said may because he was not there when Te was created. He makes this assertion because that is a good way to explain the grappling displayed in the fighting of karate men of the day.

origonal art - karate (as in china hand),

as in before the 'major' changes in the art, centered around sport and mass teaching in line with Japanese Budo became significant.

As a sub issue I think we should remember that styles or as I prefer to refer to them systems are relativly new concepts,

it would seem the older art was simply one of function, and you got it from where you could after perhaps an 'apprentiship' with a teacher for several years.

This is how something like tegumi easily become part of old karate practise and for very functional reasons as well,

old karate is a mix up of many things IMO, proving it is difficult at best I tend to focus on the basic research I can do, common sense and what my Seniors tell me.

Just to advise McCarthy Sensei will get around to making a post on this thread,

But right now he is dealing with other important matters before he heads off again on some more international seminars.

what, no meeting with the King of Norway? lol j/k.

that would be great. I can ask him where I can get a copy of the Japanese version of Nagamine's "Tales of Okinawa's great masters" - if anyone, he would definitely know.
good news Jim, thanks.

Hmmm, there is one potential answer outside of circular discussion trying to understand a few words.

In 1933, Mizuho Mutsu wrote "Kempo Karate". He had been a student of Funakoshi, taught at the Tokyo Imperial Univeristy, and in 1930 had traveled to Okinawa exploring his arts origins. His work is one of the most comprehensive works on karate, pre WWII, on every level.

It was published two years before Funakoshi's "Karate-do Koyan', incorporated an extensive section on kyusho-jutsu, drawings of 20 Kata (including ones not in Funakoshi's teachings but later to be adopted by the JKA), and 1/2 of the book was dedicated to kumite or how to apply karate technique.

Many of those applications would take the attacker to the ground and lock them into submission, and clearly show graound grappling.

This of course does't prove much except Mutsu shows it, but if this Japanese karate-ka and researcher took the time to include this portion of the art, in his eyes this should have been in the karate-ka tool chest.

While kata itself is a tool chest, there are absolutely no rules that say the only techniques or applications that exist can come from kata. There is plenty of space in the study of the arts to add other technique studies.

Whether an instructor shared them privately, openly, episodically or very quietly, likely depended on his students needs. What students get depends more on what the students individual potential is and the environment of the arts needs than just a standard template.

So regardless of what it was called, there is 'proof' that it did exist and was documented. Mutsu showed far more about his art than almost any other book you can find from that era.

For myself one aspect of ground fighting began my first night 35 years ago and to this day begins when my students begin too.

Ed the next time we get together perhaps we can explore Mutsu's contributions.

pleasantly,

that would be great, thanks Victor.

btw, I found a reference to Nagamine's original in Japanese:
http://museum.hikari.us/books/index80.html
"Okinawa no Karate Sumo Meijin-Den"
or: "Okinawan Karate and Sumo Masters"
published: 1986

That does sound like really interesting material
http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/art-mutsu3.html

He is Japanese and trained mostly in Japan (Tokyo), visiting Okinawa breifly and then teaching/demonstrating in Hawaii.... It would be really interesting to see his integrated Judo and/or JJJ ground techniques into his Karate.

Good question and discussion. Neither Okinawan Sumo nor tegumi are present in 98% of the "styles' of karate out there. SOME aspects of it are present in Okinawan Karate hojo undo and partner drills. All out freestyle-type fights like you would see in an Okinawan village's tegumi matches are unheard of outside Okinawa or places where a significant Okinawan population exists or existed. Argentina and Hawaii come to mind. Even so-called tuite is a derivation of Chin-na which included simple takedowns, pins, holds and "pressure point" tactics. Even arts such as JJJ were derivative of indigenous fighting styles mixed with the more scientific and advanced approach of "Chuan Fa/Kempo" brought by Chin Gempin to Japan centuries ago. Yet the styles of Judo, Aikido, JJJ and GJJ/BJJ which exist today are far removed from the progenitor grappling concepts of Gempin's "Kenpo".

So what the heck am I getting at? If you learn almost anything called "MAs" these days, especially the TMAs as we know them now, you're probably fooling yourself into believing that in any way it will make you a nearly invincible fighter whether in the ring or out. Being able to throw a good punch would be a lot to ask IMO.

Even if you immerse yourself in MMAs training there is a good chance that the only time you'll use it for "real" is in competition and even then maybe not beyond sparring unless you want to make a career of it.

There are pluses and minuses to each kind of MA training:

If you are a young kid with lots of energy, lacking in self-confidence and unaware of how to use your body in SD then a GOOD TMAs school (~5% of them out there) will help one to realize some positive change by training diligently.

MMAs training will teach you strong fundamentals and of course someone well-versed in MMAs or GJJ will be able to handle themselves in a street confrontation, just as long as all the variables that could occur don't. Like gettin' "stole" on the ground by someone lurking out of sight, or the possibility that your opponent is "strapped". All things being equal, mano a mano, MMAs is fine. It will work unless you meet a streetfighter like Quinton Jackson. I have known countless cats like that, that I would pit against even a guy like Cro Cop or Chuck Liddell.

The thing is with TMAs you are going to have a very hard time finding one that will teach you anything that is practical/applicable to the real world. You have to know what is relevant before you train. Your parents have to know what is a good fighting style versus a fun time (or daycare) if you do it as a child. It is a crap shoot for sure.

With MMAs you learn some real world skills BUT how often will you REALLY fight in the street? Will you actually kick your arse too much to be able to defend yourself or will you be too old to use the skills you knew as a young strapping adult during your latter years, a time when it may be crucial for you to be young and able in body and mind albeit chronologically "old"?

How many folks want to take actual punishment in order to insure that the sado-masochism will translate to something they will only theoretically ever use? The truth is some people love to fight. It is an esteem issue whether an inferiority or superiority complex. It is overkill for the common person.

So you have to just wonder.

What the MMA guys ARE slowly finding out is that a lot of good karate techs, like spinning backfists, spinning back kicks, front kicks, roundhouse kicks, elbows, knee strikes, punches, hammer fists, basic trips, sweeps, throws, etc, are very translatable to real fighting. In fact these techs are seen in other systems like Muay Thai, Savate and Gung Fu. So it can be relevant for real fighting if taught the right way and assimilated by the right person.

As for double-legs they are in the kata and drills of good Japanese and Okinawan Karate. Patsai Dai comes to mind as does Chinto and Kusanku. If your instructor is a McDojoist you'd never know this but if your instructor can "squab"" and learned from real people then trust me you'll learn a lot of what is present in many modern systems of "MAs", plus a few "hidden truths" .

Seeking is the answer. Comparing and contrasting in a relevant manner is crucial. Just like in the old days on Okinawa, advanced students should be encouraged to branch out or enhance their knowledge by learning from all the relevant sources available. Too often folks will claim that they are advanced in a system, say like Shito Ryu karate, but in fact their instructor, dojo and ryu were insufficiant to meet their (or anyones) needs. A BB often means squat in this situation.

I did "MMAs" even before the craze and I can tell you that the TMAs stuff I learned was only REAFFIRMED and VALIDATED after doing these other Mixed martial or combat-like "arts". I guess I'm just a lucky bastidge!!!

Good luck figuring it out. Peace...

Med, I found something that supports your argument, this article was actually referenced earlier in this thread and I didn't realize the date of the interview...but you need to connect part I and part II to see, what I would call evidence of tegumi mentioned prior to the 1990's: (I have quoted the relavent points)

part I
Interview With Hohan Soken
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=426

Quote:

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The date of the interview was September 10, 1978. The interview was conducted in Spanish ...

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part II
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=427

Quote:

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Interviewer’s Note: Soken-sensei used the Spanish word for wrestling when describing this art-form but I felt that a more apt term would be grappling - much like Japanese-style jujutsu. He stated that many people often referred to the Okinawan grappling arts as Okinawan-style wrestling mainly because it was never systematized and looked like a free-for-all form of fighting.

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Quote:

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Interveiwer's note: As a youngster on Okinawa (Soken), grappling was taken very seriously and it was not uncommon for individuals to suffer broken arms and legs as a result of taking part in this light form of entertainment. (Soken-sensei used the terms "te-kumi" (1) or "gyaku-te" (2) as identifying this old Okinawan art form)

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Quote:

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Soken: Grappling is an old Okinawan custom that is commonly practiced in all villages. In America, the children played at "cowboys and indians." In Okinawa we played by grappling with each other. We would have contests for grapplers in every village and one village would pit their best grapplers against all comers. It was very exciting.

Some people see the grappling and call it Okinawan jujutsu but this is not right. It is the old method called "ti" (often written as ‘te.” When pronounced in the old dialect of Okinawa it sounds like the word "tea"). Ti practice was very common during the Meiji / Taisho era (turn of the century) but with the Japanese influences, these methods have almost disappeared.

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so your argument is made, that tegumi( = "te-kumi") was trained in conjunction with ti/te.

but still,
1. that wouldn't stop anyone from blending ju-jitsu arts and calling it 'tegumi' without anyone knowing the difference. Soken confirms the loss of continuity of it's practice after the Taisho era. same as what Nagamine mentioned. technically, if someone today learned grappling from another source like HS wrestling or JJ - it's not tegumi in the historical sense....so why not just call it grappling/wrestling.

and
2. H. Soken puts tegumi in terms of a separate informal skill, he does not associate tegumi with kata. Then again, he doesn't really associate 'Ti' with kata either.

finally
3. Tegumi sounds like it was so informal, that it wasn't taught or coached - conditioning/strengthening and toughening-up free-for-all rough 'play'. If it's no longer in the culture, and nobody does it for a generation, then it's gone. no 'teachers' to pass it on.


See? I can be reasonable.