FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
1 registered (Zombie Zero), 21 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
cxt 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
Yesterday at 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
Yesterday at 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 9 of 32 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 31 32 >
Topic Options
#354186 - 08/09/07 08:05 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats correct John. The basis for the argument typically comes from a few different angles:
- everything you can do standing-up, you can do on the ground.

- Kata has always contained groundfighting but kept secret to all but a very very few (and those few kept it secret too...until after 1993 apparently).

- Karate always had ground fighting technique because Okinawa had Tegumi. yes and the US has baseball so Americans can throw a grenade well.

- master Y mentions grappling/Tegumi/Sumo in a paragraph in their book written X years ago.

- master X is/was a good grappler, therefore Karate contains groundfighting. (even though the person's previous training in Judo or JJ isn't credited)

- you can't prove it DOESN'T have ground fighting.

etc...you get the idea. either someone trains in another Art and gains groundfighting skill then later credits/claims it's source as unlocking the secrets of Karate training....this is to suggest they are closer to karate's original intent - ie 'more effective'. coupled with that, historical rabbits are pulled out of contemporary hats.

again, there isn't any shame in giving credit where it's due. people become skilled at ground fighting not by extracting principles from kata, but from studying Arts that specifically have groundfighting as part of their main curriculum and don't keep it a secret.

Top
#354187 - 08/09/07 08:13 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I mean, I can also read all sorts of images in clouds as well. Doesn't mean that Mickey Mouse is really in the sky though...

How does an upright kata = horizontal ground fighting? Am I missing something????




Oddly enough, I really don't have a problem with people saying that they found something in kata that *can be* used for groundfighting. If it's useful, I don't see how it matters where they find it.

My problem is when people claim that things were already practiced in a certain manner, when they weren't, by most accounts.

And then to go around ridiculing and marginalizing others for not seeing what they see.......

A poor way to make a point at best. The whole idea of "styles" being superior is antiquated, IMHO. How you train is much more important that what you train.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#354188 - 08/09/07 08:43 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

While most of this discussion hasn't been of much interest to me in the last day it has suggested Okinawan Sumo was related to ground fighting.

At least the Okinawan Sumo I've seen on OkinawaBBTV.com doesn't seem to resemble that argument. On a large circle of sand about 6" thick, two contestents grab each other's obi (or whatever it is they wear) and when they begin they try and wrestle the other to touch the ground and if doing so the match is over.

In that contest it is a form of grappling, and not disimiliar to other grappling arts around the world. I've seen similar Celtic arts demonstrated.

On the whole it looks fun and if I was younger I think I'd enjoy giving it a go.

But unless there are other aspects I haven't seen I have a hard time trying to unbalanced and drop someone as being a form of ground fighting.

Isshinryu's variation of Kyan's Kata include techniques were you end on the ground and stike from there, and that is a form of ground fighting. It also contains several obvious throws and an entire range of grappling techniques such as limitless armbars, etc. in the kata. My instructors art also covers kicking while grounded, and was my first Isshinryu kicking lessons 35 years ago.

But I don't believe the argument that the purpose of karate is for fighting. I see anyone making that point, Okinawan or whomever as missing the clear lesson of kata's techniques, They're really not designed for fighting but for ending a situation.

When kata technique can be used to hyper-extend the elbow of an arm launched in your direction, to the point of breaking it, if you train to the appropriate level of execution. When a kata technique can be used to dislocate ankles and legs, to the point of breaking too, when hand techniques that look like strikes can wrench necks to the extreme level, it's such techniques that end a situation.

Of course in Isshinryu we study our own kobudo along with our empty hand. It is quite reasonable to assume our use of sai is to counter extreme fighting threats. It's faldarol to believe they were designed to fight weapons, but interesting to see how grappling works agianst sai.

Then again I'm Isshinryu prejudiced on days when I'm not other art prejudiced.

The karate arts are neutral they just are. How they're extended into usage depends on training, imagination and skill acquisition. If you limit a system by saying we don't do so and so, then you don't, but it hardly defines what others may do.

You know, even as older and decrepit I'm becoming I think I might enjoy entering the ring against anyone with MMW versus my karate sai tradition....... hmmm
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#354189 - 08/09/07 09:28 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Victor Smith]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Very nicely put Victor.

Top
#354190 - 08/09/07 01:24 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Watch out Victor, people around here don't like when people say karate includes ground fighting. Or at least when I say it.

Top
#354191 - 08/09/07 02:40 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Two points:

Point 1:
I have been finding groundfighting techniques in Matsubayashi-Ryu since before 1990. Having trained in Silat and Kali, I began seeing the same techniques in my Karate kata. In fact, one of the moves the Goju guy did on the Human Weapon episode was a silat takedown I learned almost two decades ago.

Point 2:
What was introduced to the U.S. as Matsubayashi was not very advanced. Jim Wax, who I know and was my father's first teacher, had only a few years of training before he returned to the U.S. as a shodan.

Frank Grant had several trips to Okinawa to train with Nagamine, but all of his time with the Master combined only equals a year or 2 maximum training directly with the master. He is a knowledgeable man and a great karateka, but a master?

Ansei was sent over to the U.S. as a sandan with only 11 years of training with Nagamine. Within 3 years, he had made himself a 7th and was his own master which is a completely different discussion. My point is that he was in no way a master of Matsubayashi-Ryu. He was a lot better than most people in the U.S. had seen, but still not a master.

I find grappling techniques in kata all of the time. I don't teach them early on in a student's training because I prefer the beginner learn how to defend themself without getting tied up with one person. When skills develop, grappling can be used to an advantage against one or multiple attackers.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

Top
#354192 - 08/09/07 05:03 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

They're really not designed for fighting but for ending a situation.



I'd agree with that....which is another good reason why I don't believe kata contains ground fighting principles. kata shows a different strategy than 'fighting'.

some people would have you believe that a bow could be used as a deadly technique....why not also claim becoming a better ground fighter via a stand-up Art?

yet if a grappler claimed that BJJ improved his kicking ability (without actually kicking anything) - what would be the reaction?

Top
#354193 - 08/09/07 06:40 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think this discussion has been around some time.......

and a good discussion it is eh, my stance on it - there is very little prolonged groundwork, if any in the classical karate systems.

sure there are takedowns, locks, pins, strangles all shown in the classical kata but little/no ground grappling.

yes many of the standup techniques can be used when on the ground, but thats not really the point here.

the tegumi tradition also has very little groundwork, it is standup grappling for position to finish things either on ones feet, or to take the other person down, either for a lock/control or strike finish.

Certainly the kata are designed to show us vital point strikes or nasty breaks that end things, for self defence, as opposed to a match or prolonged anything.

What sealed this for me is the real lack of any evidence of Okinawan masters of old working groundwork as done in BJJ etc etc, where are the pictures - plenty of standup but little/no groundwork per say,

and whilst it has been said before the reality of keeping ones mobility in real self defense training really is significant.

Just my thoughts of course, but the evidence strongly suggests that karate of old didn't like going to ground, and I don't see that as a weakness considering the arts origional intent.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#354194 - 08/09/07 08:44 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: shoshinkan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

What sealed this for me is the real lack of any evidence of Okinawan masters of old working groundwork as done in BJJ etc etc, where are the pictures - plenty of standup but little/no groundwork per say,

and whilst it has been said before the reality of keeping ones mobility in real self defense training really is significant.

Just my thoughts of course, but the evidence strongly suggests that karate of old didn't like going to ground, and I don't see that as a weakness considering the arts origional intent.




My point exactly. It's no big deal to say that it wasn't in there - by most accounts, it was DESIGNED that way. Why people want to insist that substantial groundfighting is in there is beyond me.

Again, a huge difference between saying that 'I found similarities' to 'It was already there'.

Ed makes a good analogy with grapplers 'finding' striking applications in grappling drills. How ridiculous would it seem if I said that 'wall walking' was actually a spinning back kick or 'shrimping' was a double heel palm strike to the opponent's chest? I mean, you could turn those drills 90 degrees and have them made into stand-up......I guess. Perhaps when shadowboxing, the hook punch is really a RNC! A bob/uppercut is a high crotch!

And I'm not saying that those things won't work. In all seriousness, I am impressed that people are able to link those things together like that. It's just that they were not really intended to be used that way from the beginning. And to imply it that way - and scorn others for failing to see it - is just pointless.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#354195 - 08/09/07 08:44 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Sho, I think one problem with your assertions is that BJJ is not the only way to fight on the ground. BJJ guys for the most part pull guard and like to fight off their back. That is definately not the strategy in the ground work of karate nor is it my mentality. If you are taken down the point is to get back to your feet. If you catch a joint lock or a striking opportunity while getting up, great, but you are always aggressively trying to get back to your feet. How can you have a "self defense" art that lacks these techniques and strategies? On top it is also about finishing your opponent. I don't think anyone here said anything about prolonged ground work. Really the length of time you spend on the ground depends upon your own skill level to regain your feet. I guess there are many people on this forum whose karate contains no technique to regain a standing position once it is lost. I guess I can also assume that their art also lacks strikes/joint locks if you find yourself in the top position after a throw or a takedown. Its not always that easy to just stand up from the top mounted position. Strikes/joint locks can assist with this as well as finishing the fight by the time you regain your feet. Am I wrong, or did someone mention prolonged groundwork as a fighting strategy?

Top
Page 9 of 32 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 31 32 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga