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#354156 - 08/08/07 07:08 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Jkogas if I understood you correctly that a physical routine will not change a persons character, but what about the lesson of learning self discipline the student learns in practicing this routine?





My opinion is, if it's important for the student to learn, then it will be. If it isn't, it won't be. Otherwise, every student involved in martial arts training would be a rigidly self-disciplined person. Thats just not the case.


Quote:


The perseverance they may develop over the continual practice? And if they had a guiding hand helping them to learn these lessons, would this not help to change a students character for the better, perhaps make the students more empathic or sympathetic to others?





Perhaps. Again, I believe that it may, if those qualities were important in some way to the student to begin with (even perhaps in some ways unknown to him or her)

I've seen martial arts affect people in very positive ways while the same training affected others in other ways not so positive. This explains why not every black belt walking around the planet is not another Gandhi personified.

Sure there's a good chance that devoting yourself to a discipline can will create a positive change in a person. It's just my belief that such a person had to have the positive qualities in an unpolished state to begin with. There is no way that I can believe that every person entering martial arts has those qualities or, enough of them. There are some deranged people in this world, often in very subtle and hard to immediately discern ways.


-John

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#354157 - 08/08/07 07:11 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: CVV]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Neko -


Never mind.






-John

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#354158 - 08/08/07 09:24 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Brian, please read my posts. I never said wrestling was in kata. The "skill" of wrestling is developed through grappling practice, a classical training method. Kata, however, contains the techniques. I will say 95% of my ground techniques come from kata.




Wrestling is not in kata,but ground techniques are? What ground techniques are in what kata?

Quote:

I don't know if you know this, but grappling is grappling. Be it okinawan tegumi or folk style wrestling they both ultimately develop the same "skill set". When I say karate it is not interchangable with kata. I am talking about how karate as a system comes together to create a complete fighting method. This is a new look on a very old methodology.




Gee, I didn't know.

Grappling from kata are not on the ground. Did you know that?

Quote:

If I learned to throw a hook punch from boxing and then found and developed it in karate training would you say, Ah Ha, I told you there were no hook punches in karate?





There are hook punches as well as different striking methods in karate, all on the feet.

Quote:

.S. Most high ranking Shorin Ryu karateka fail to impress me these days.




Does the founder of your style groundfight from techniques in kata?

I never once saw you mention ground techniques in the naihanchi thread in the kata section..??
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#354159 - 08/08/07 10:13 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Unless you get into pretty detailed specifics, what IS or IS NOT in karate is about as debatable as what is or is not in cooking. There are (and have been) so many varieties taught by so many different teachers that it's like stacking sand.

Past that, the value of the debate itself is rather pointless. If the context is academic, historical research can often document what DID happen, but it is almost impossible to prove what DIDN'T happen.

If the context is, instead, effectiveness or functionality, the discussion must ultimately sift down to what works for the individual. Unfortunately, cross-art internet dialog seems to quickly deteriorate to the playground level of "DO TOO!, DO NOT!, DO TOO, DO NOT!"

And the point is.... what? If something works for you - does it work any WORSE if you can't convince everyone on the internet that it works for you?

Or... does it work any BETTER for you - if they all agree?

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#354160 - 08/08/07 10:23 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I understand that Joss,but the point is that every art lacks something and karate does not cover groundfighting from kata.

Is it too much to ask that some people suck it up and just let it be what it is?

Karate is a graet self defense system when properly taught.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354161 - 08/08/07 10:42 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"I understand that Joss, but the point is that every art lacks something and karate does not cover groundfighting from kata."

Well... Iain Abernethy teaches groundfighting bunkai from kata. I've got it on tape. It's certainly not ALL about groundfighting. But he will break out ground applications where he feels them to be pertinent.

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#354162 - 08/08/07 10:49 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Joss]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
And did Mr. Abernathy learn these techniques from Mr. Miyagi...or another 'founding' karateka...or 'discover' them himself?

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#354163 - 08/08/07 11:09 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jkogas Lets agree to disagree. My last post to U was confusing. By your last reply we really don't disagree. We just see profiency differently. If some are reached thats success to me, we are dealing with man. Not all will be touched.

CVV That was elegantly stated that is what Karate is about, imho.

BrianS - I feel the same way Karate just like anyother art has its faults, knowing this you can patch them with cross training that covers intensively grappling and groundfighting. Like Medulant I wrestled in high school and college, I fused it into my personal defense. But it was not included in my Karate training and that goes back 1969-70s when I 1st started.

Pat McCarthy now teaches groundwork in his Karate bunkais now, so maybe it was there? Teki series is a far cry from groundfighting, you'd have to as u stated, imagine it on its back. When I studied Shorin it was described as back against the wall fighting or on a ship. It is suppose to have come straight from China and we know Kung-fu doesn't think being on the ground long is effective on a battle field.

Joss - Thats a good point it doesn't really matter but it makes good discussion. Which i believe this forum is all about.

harlan Great question, the forever detective. I'd like to know the answer, Joss please?


Edited by Neko456 (08/08/07 11:23 AM)

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#354164 - 08/08/07 11:24 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually, Nagamine never discussed groundfighting in kata as far as I know. However, he never taught sparring technique either, I guess that is not contained in Shorin Ryu either.

And as far as my previous discussion of Naihanchi and ground fighting, maybe you need to improve your memory.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=7&vc=1

Actually, this memory thing would explain alot. I think I understand why you don't get my drift.

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#354165 - 08/08/07 11:39 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

And did Mr. Abernathy learn these techniques from Mr. Miyagi...or another 'founding' karateka...or 'discover' them himself?




The funny thing is that all these new discoveries about kata and groundfighting were supposedly always there.

All of a sudden we have double leg takedowns, sprawl, armbars,mount, open guard and guard escape, etc... all contained within kata( BTW, the end of sanchin is a tapout)., no wait...kata is farmer burns wrestling,WAIT...kata use to be holding weapons, no? doh!
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