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#354146 - 08/07/07 04:59 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Sifu John not quite a blanket statement but if you ask if anybody knows any local MMA that are a$$, I'd bet you are able to name more MMAer then Karate guys. It is the way they are trained imo.

In my defenses, what I finally stated -

For every MMAer like Rich Franklin theres 20 Otizs or XXX. For every boxer like Oscar Delaholua theres 25 Camachos. Is it an insult that the truth be told, I'm generalizing bc I don't know every boxer/MMA or Pro Wrestlers. But from the ones I've met. A lot of high school or college wrestlers are pretty humble and tough in general.

I aplogize for generalizing but in a forum like this, not to do so would take too much specifics.

I'm just trying to make a point being prepared to fight physically, is not always the best, if mental awareness is not part of that training.

I'm generalizing but from my prespective hanging around such type is always like holding back wild mustangs.
You always have to ask them why? Bc he gave you a finger, he's drunk. It might be just me I try not to discriminate but some of these guys are (which are my buddies) butts.

I'm in a fish bowl but this is what I see.

John is every thing so neat and in order for you, that if its not efficient or effective, you kick it out. That was just for techniques not people LOL! I assuming your'e the JDK man could you explain.

By the way aren't you a JKD/MMA man so they are less holy LOL, but they darn sure can fight efficient and effective. I usually tell them let have your wallet so I use your money to bail you out.


Edited by Neko456 (08/07/07 05:11 PM)
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#354147 - 08/07/07 06:16 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Last I remember, Motobu did pretty good in a ring fight.




Motobu got his ass whooped by a sumo wrestler continuously until he gave up and decided that Karate is for civil self defense only and does not work against proffessional fighters.
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#354148 - 08/07/07 06:40 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Last I remember, Motobu did pretty good in a ring fight.




Motobu got his ass whooped by a sumo wrestler continuously until he gave up and decided that Karate is for civil self defense only and does not work against proffessional fighters.




Interesting, do you happen to have a name or even a source for this? I only know of three documented defeats. One was to his brother practitioiner of Motobu Ryu, a system of Udundi or palace hand, Itarashiki a karate expert, and Kentsu Yabu, another karate expert.

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#354149 - 08/07/07 10:02 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Sifu John not quite a blanket statement but if you ask if anybody knows any local MMA that are a$$, I'd bet you are able to name more MMAer then Karate guys. It is the way they are trained imo.





MMA guys are higher profile. That may lead to some skewed information. Iíve come up in the traditional martial arts as well as more contemporary arts. Iíve seen an equal amount of asses in both. Why is that? Because some people are asses and some arenít. Thatís true in every facet of society. Thatís just a reality of life.


Quote:


I'm just trying to make a point being prepared to fight physically, is not always the best, if mental awareness is not part of that training.





Describe this mental awareness and how you going about training or developing it? Doesnít have to be in-depth. Iím just trying to get a more accurate sense of what it is youíre saying.


Quote:


I'm generalizing but from my perspective hanging around such type is always like holding back wild mustangs.
You always have to ask them why? Bc he gave you a finger, he's drunk. It might be just me I try not to discriminate but some of these guys are (which are my buddies) butts.





You know why that is? Because thatís what you see on TV more often. The reason why that is might be because that creates more dramatic effect for the viewing audience. Itís all a big dramatic ďsoap operaĒ for the purpose of generating ratings.


Quote:


I'm in a fish bowl but this is what I see.





I see it as well, but the difference is, I know thatís merely a fraction of the total reality.


Quote:

John is every thing so neat and in order for you, that if its not efficient or effective, you kick it out.





Are you asking me a question? If something werenít efficient or effective, can you tell me why in Godís name Iíd want to pursue it?

If I had square tires on my car and then tried some round tires that I found worked better, would it make sense to continue driving square tires?


Quote:


That was just for techniques not people LOL! I assuming your'e the JDK man could you explain.





What exactly are you asking me again?


Quote:


By the way aren't you a JKD/MMA man so they are less holy LOL, but they darn sure can fight efficient and effective. I usually tell them let have your wallet so I use your money to bail you out.





Come back? Iím trying to make sense of what youíre saying. Iím taking this at face value and thus your sentence reads something like this:

1. Youíre asking me if I am a JKD man. Yes. Thatís been a big part of my background.

2. So you're saying that JKD/MMA men are less holy? Are you saying that YOU are "more holy" than the rest of us? Isn't that being sanctimonious?

Or is this just another blanket statement or perhaps something else that Iím not getting?

IF JKD men are ďless holyĒ, who are we being compared to? Thatís part of what kills me about people who as passing judgment on others the way that youíve done on this thread.

3. Some JKD men and plenty of MMA guys have shown that they can fight pretty well. But who do you ďusually tell them let have your walletĒ? What does that mean? And whose money are you using to bail whom out with?

Wouldnít it just be easier to stop passing judgment on people that you donít even know?


-John

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#354150 - 08/08/07 12:10 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
hello everyone,

I believe fighting, or learning how to fight for w/e reason. To defend yourself, to kill someone. It is what it is. I believe when you take time out of your life to learn, study and practice a fighting style you have a goal. Be it long or short it is still a goal. It can be a hobby or a necessity. Either way if you practice it for perfection, either to kill or for the love of it. It is an art. Adding your own cultural influences and traditions and rituals is a way to train more than just the physical, more than the mental but the spiritual. All which affects onces character. If a fighting art is practiced w/o philosophy be Asian or Christian influenced it is still an art. The fact that some masters teach philosophy and guide their students with their morals helps create values. Perhaps these students are luckier to have found such an instructor. Practicing a routine of movements will not change a persons behavior. However, learning self control and patience can.

Jkogas if I understood you correctly that a physical routine will not change a persons character, but what about the lesson of learning self discipline the student learns in practicing this routine? The perseverance they may develop over the continual practice? And if they had a guiding hand helping them to learn these lessons, would this not help to change a students character for the better, perhaps make the students more empathic or sympathetic to others?

I believe the above statement is the number one method of advertisement for just about every art out there. At least in the west.
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does not surpass his
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#354151 - 08/08/07 12:28 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Neko

It seems your question is about whether karate suffering because it tries to instill moral values into it's practioner as opposed to an art which only teaches self preservation techniques. Please read that again. as an ART that only teaches self preservation techniques. Many western arts do not teach Asian philosophies and some arts are very much about competition or sport. Here winning at all cost and hard work is the philosophy and victory is the goal. Sure they may not learn how to be "better" people but it still teaches positive traits.

Karate may teach deadly techniques. Now they are also taught stories about people who have used these techniques. These stories come with lessons about the consequences of using such techniques and the price one pays for doing so. It also makes one more empathic to others. Understanding how easily it is to hurt another. Sure karate may cover a longer broader curriculum but that is what makes it distinctive from other systems of combats, it probably makes it more valuable, because it touches the heart in different way. Because it values more than just physical and mental, but spiritual as well.

This is not to say that a wrestling/boxing coach cannot guided a youth or pro fighter with life's curve balls. Just to say that traditionally compared with more contemporary arts Karate may offer more for it's students.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#354152 - 08/08/07 12:31 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Quote:

Sifu John not quite a blanket statement but if you ask if anybody knows any local MMA that are a$$, I'd bet you are able to name more MMAer then Karate guys. It is the way they are trained imo.





Jokgas - Why is that? Because some people are asses and some arenít. Thatís true in every facet of society. Thatís just a reality of life.


Neko456 Theres a slight difference in being arrogant and being disrespectful. There nothing really wrong with saying What I believe I do is the best or better then whatever. Thats just an opinion. But when you start saying I can kick your a$$, because I think I can. I train MMA, what you do ain't nothing but a dance.



Jkogas - Describe this mental awareness and how you going about training or developing it? Doesnít have to be in-depth. Iím just trying to get a more accurate sense of what it is youíre saying.

Neko456 - I have a reality story here a associate of mines while bouncing kicked much a$$ at the door. After the crowd was cleared out, one of the guys that he handily threw off the steps, challenge him. Saying "If you think you are so bad come try that again!" This was a very capable fighter he had just proven this in the mist of a crowd of fighters. But his arrogance and not being mentally aware he rushed to the challenge he was ambushed by two others and knocked unconcious. This is what I mean by being mentally aware, what in the hell could have changed in 15-30 minutes that a guy had no chance in an encounter and now he is so brave??? There has to be something up. Mentally aware, very simple.

Quote:


Neko456 I'm generalizing but from my perspective hanging around such type is always like holding back wild mustangs.
You always have to ask them why? Bc he gave you a finger, he's drunk. It might be just me I try not to discriminate but some of these guys are (which are my buddies) butts.





Jokgas- You know why that is? Because thatís what you see on TV more often. The reason why that is might be because that creates more dramatic effect for the viewing audience. Itís all a big dramatic ďsoap operaĒ for the purpose of generating ratings.


Neko456 So you are saying this is act or they are acting like they are in a soap opera or these guy are acting like they are on TV. They are acting like they want to fight for no reason. You seem to think that nobody knows anybody but you. You are saying that I made these things up. So who is
passing judgment on who. I train and kick around with all type close friends and assoicates.

Quote:


Neko456- I'm in a fish bowl but this is what I see.




Jokgas - I see it as well, but the difference is, I know thatís merely a fraction of the total reality.

Neko456 - Maybe but what we see is all we can base reality on.

Quote:

John is every thing so neat and in order for you, that if its not efficient or effective, you kick it out.





Jokgas - Are you asking me a question? If something werenít efficient or effective, can you tell me why in Godís name Iíd want to pursue it? If I had square tires on my car and then tried some round tires that I found worked better, would it make sense to continue driving square tires? What exactly are you asking me again?
Quote:


That was just for techniques not people LOL! I assuming your'e the JDK man could you explain.




Neko...I was being funny (LOL!) but asking do you apply the same thought to people that you meet. Your statement about the chruch cons and people not being able to help people, by re-channeling their efforts and thoughts. And I was asking if you applied that in you social meetings (being funny I hope).


Quote:


By the way aren't you a JKD/MMA man so they are less holy LOL, but they darn sure can fight efficient and effective. I usually tell them let have your wallet so I use your money to bail you out.




Neko...I'm asking are you an example of what a MMA/JKD man is.

Jokgas - Come back? Iím trying to make sense of what youíre saying. Iím taking this at face value and thus your sentence reads something like this:1. Youíre asking me if I am a JKD man. Yes. Thatís been a big part of my background.

Neko456 granted.

2. So you're saying that JKD/MMA men are less holy? Are you saying that YOU are "more holy" than the rest of us? Isn't that being sanctimonious? IF JKD men are ďless holyĒ, who are we being compared to? Thatís part of what kills me about people who as passing judgment on others the way that youíve done on this thread. Or is this just another blanket statement or perhaps something else that Iím not getting?


Neko456 No I assume no one that walks this earth is holy.

Neko456 But using your words "less holy" I can make a fairly accurate assumption that a person that care so less about his fellow man that he believes that man is like a wild animal, not able to change when give the right emotional support and self analyzing information to better themselves. Imo Man is not like the animal he can change the way he acts and responds to life positively. Man can change his stripes = the way he acts. A person that believes otherwise could be considered less holy as any man with flaws. And yes I'm less holy then the only example of Holiness that ever walked this earth, we all are. Even You, yeah I said You.


3. Some JKD men and plenty of MMA guys have shown that they can fight pretty well.

Neko456 - So have many of other forms of Combat. And what does that mean?

Jokgas - But who do you ďusually tell them let have your walletĒ? What does that mean? And whose money are you using to bail whom out with? Wouldnít it just be easier to stop passing judgment on people that you donít even know?
-John




Neko456 Yes that would be nice.

Neko456 Sifu sometimes my make believe assoicates don't listen and want to fight, usually whipping the guys a$$ pretty easily. The Cops usually arrest the aggressor though he didn't start it (or give the finger) my buddy ends it pretty easy.

Neko456 His wallet has money to bond him out I think assault and battery is $500-$1000 here now. Better his money then mines, you don't get this back. You have to wait until your court appearance to bond yourself out, people working on the outside can address the system and bond you out faster. If he doesn't he waits and bonds himself out or calls home. I know you know tha,t you were in some form of LEO. Stop being so anal.

Neko456 - Sometimes you can spend too much time in the gym. Trying to figure out where I offend you or MMAer, hell I think Randy Coulture and Rich Franklin are some cool dudes, because they carry themselves well being respectful but forceful. I respect the others but its my proragative to say weather I like them or not. Are you still offended?


Edited by Neko456 (08/08/07 12:47 AM)

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#354153 - 08/08/07 12:53 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: TeK9]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Tek9 I agree you seem to have it well together. There is a time and place to help life live and to kill. This is guided by our morals, but is countered by survival being the highest natural motive.


Edited by Neko456 (08/08/07 12:59 AM)
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#354154 - 08/08/07 05:12 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Through this discussion we come to the essence of karate / karate-training.

Through training hard we develop physically in a balanced way. This is good for general health. We train correctly our body.
Through training hard and keeping our thoughts towards searching the limits of our capabilities we train a correct spirit.
By training hard and reflecting and researching offensive and defensive techniques derived from kata we train a correct mind.

This process of understanding conflict and fighting takes many years, starting from adelescence training technique, over adult life learning to apply and consider the consequence of application, into a maturity reflecting knowledge upon life/society.

Karate does not strive to be the best fighting machine in the shortest period of time. It stresses reflection upon what you do and not only regarding the technical aspects of fighting.
This moral does not need to be preached and is discussed on occasion usually after training. Training is for working out, not for preaching. Moral values will come by example so seniors should behave accordingly.
This gives huge responsibility to those who are using the media to propagete themselves or their art.

Do not be struck by others. Do not strike others. The principle is peace without incident. - Chojun Miyagi Sensei

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#354155 - 08/08/07 05:24 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Last I remember, Motobu did pretty good in a ring fight.




Motobu got his ass whooped by a sumo wrestler continuously until he gave up and decided that Karate is for civil self defense only and does not work against proffessional fighters.




Interesting, do you happen to have a name or even a source for this? I only know of three documented defeats. One was to his brother practitioiner of Motobu Ryu, a system of Udundi or palace hand, Itarashiki a karate expert, and Kentsu Yabu, another karate expert.




The incident with the sumo wrestler is described in 'Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters' by Shoshin Nagamine (translated P McCarthy) p 95-96.

There is another account of defeat with Choju Miyagi described by Morio Higaonna in 'Traditional Karatedo - Okinawa Goju Ryu 4 - applications of the Kata part 2'
on page 170 - 171

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