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#354136 - 08/07/07 12:31 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:


That side of MA is for children in my view.





And I would argue that any character should be fostered by the parents at a young age, and certainly not by anyone else (ie, a martial arts school, elementary school, etc., etc). The parents have the responsibility there.


Quote:


Adults should know how to behave already and if someone doesn't but learns through karate then either he is faking it or Karate is filling a hole in his life that it may not be suited for. Otherwise I don't see people allowing the philosophy of any TMA effect their actual behaviour.





As I mentioned, character is typically already there or it isn't. Training a few hours a week in a martial arts school doesn't promote "character" anymore than going to CHURCH promotes character. The people either believe that character is important or they don't. It is usually the underlying character that leads people to church, etc. to begin with and not the other way around.

It's been WIDELY known that thieves and con-artists have filled our churches and institutions. Same goes for damn near anything else. The ritualistic practice of "moves" doesn't make a person spiritual if he isn't already.

Sorry for the continued thread drift. Just thought I'd throw that in there.



-John




John, maybe in your world everyone has wonderful parents who teach them everything they need to know about life and if people do bad things then they are just bad people with bad character. However, where I come from kids and some adults don't have role models and their parents aren't there for them. Therefore, I feel it is up to everyone in the community to help those who were not as fortunate as some. Just providing a positive role model is enough most of the time. I believe karate is character building because when people see a hard working caring individual giving of themself that positive energy is contagious.

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#354137 - 08/07/07 12:37 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Depends on your goals. It is NOT an effective art for cage fighting, but it is an effective art for self defense.




Karate is about dealing with attacks presented to you. ANY ATTACKS. Are you speaking specifically about fighting in a cage or just any competition or ring fighting. Last I remember, Motobu did pretty good in a ring fight. I suspect the outcome would have been the same if they were in a cage. In addition karateka like Kyan did very well in challenge matches as well. He defeated a very good Judoka in one such match. Maybe your karate is only good in self defense, but mine covers much more than that.




I believe very intently that my karate is every bit as effective if not more so than yours or anyone else's here. Spare me the "real karate" BS.

Karate is not suited for UFC style fighting. If you think it is then you are fooling yourself. Integrations can be made to make it effective though.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354138 - 08/07/07 12:40 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Brian, you didn't address any of my points. In what way is karate not designed to deal with "UFC" style attacks? And don't get mad at me, YOU said your karate was ineffective in a cage, not me.

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#354139 - 08/07/07 12:45 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Karate alone is not effective when it comes to groundfighting. I know you believe it is. That's because you believe karate contains groundfighting (double leg takedowns & submissions, etc.), but it just doesn't, and that's ok.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING, AND THAT'S OK TOO!!!!
_________________________
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#354140 - 08/07/07 12:56 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
So what makes a skilled ground fighter? Wrestling skill? Oh, I forgot, wrestling training is a part of karate training. Not competition wrestling, but development of grappling skill for fighting. What else, effective strikes from the top and bottom position? Oh, now I remeber, karate trains those too. Oh yeah, submissions such as a keylock or arm bar, yep, karate has that as well. Wait, let me guess, escapes from bottom. Karate does not use a closed guard the way BJJ guys do. Maybe if your style contained Naihanchi you would see the open guard position and the escapes from bottom that it contains. Karate is very simple. Our defense is good offense. Always on the attack. If I showed you the technique in kata and then showed it to you in application, then would you believe me? Oh year, keylock from open guard from the bottom, Naihanchi has that as well. Plus much more.

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#354141 - 08/07/07 01:09 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354142 - 08/07/07 02:32 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, actually most of the info on the principles of fighting, okinawan karate, and kata were unknown to most foreigners until the last 10 to 15 years. However, there was a lot trasmitted to early students in the 50's which apparently did not get out to many. As far as my own training I have always combined my wrestling with my karate since 1990. I guess that is why people complained alot about my takedowns. Then, I started questioning the effectiveness of my own early training in 1997. Then I fought a gung fu practitioner who "educated" me on the value of inside fighting from standing. From that I explored the clinch range in kata. Then in 2002 I trained my current teacher who has the most advanced understanding of karate out of anyone I have EVER met. He taught me the principles of kata, how to disect kata, how to train kata, and how to apply those principles. He also taught me a lot of grappling applications from kata. With the knowledge he taught me I developed my own fighting application based on his teachings, my research, two man drills, and sparring/rolling. I also needed a base of knowledge for groundfighting so I took a few months of BJJ. I learned some good stuff, but didn't like their strategies. Therefore I took the principles they taught, looked to naihanchi and higher level kata for the techniques, and studied Randy Couture's wrestling approach to ground fighting. This caused me to throw away the closed guard, work wrestling as applied to fighting in place of the okinawan sumo/tegumi/karate wrestling, and used the karate techniques and priciples of kata to complete the approach. Now I roll in my garage with my most dedicated student to apply this knowledge in all ranges of fighting.

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#354143 - 08/07/07 03:02 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
There ya go!!! You saw what was lacking and integrated it. Nothing wrong with that. I have done the same thing.

Saying it was in kata all along is what's the matter. It just isn't nor was it ever there.

I have worked with high ranks in shorin-ryu who never go to the ground. It's not in their kata either, it's not in anybody's.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354144 - 08/07/07 03:08 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Brian, please read my posts. I never said wrestling was in kata. The "skill" of wrestling is developed through grappling practice, a classical training method. Kata, however, contains the techniques. I will say 95% of my ground techniques come from kata. However, I don't know okinawan sumo/tegumi/karate wrestling, therefore, I draw on my own grappling base. I don't know if you know this, but grappling is grappling. Be it okinawan tegumi or folk style wrestling they both ultimately develop the same "skill set". When I say karate it is not interchangable with kata. I am talking about how karate as a system comes together to create a complete fighting method. This is a new look on a very old methodology. Was Kyan's art not karate because he got his grappling base from Okinawan Sumo and Karate Wrestling? If I learned to throw a hook punch from boxing and then found and developed it in karate training would you say, Ah Ha, I told you there were no hook punches in karate?

P.S. Most high ranking Shorin Ryu karateka fail to impress me these days.


Edited by medulanet (08/07/07 03:21 PM)

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#354145 - 08/07/07 04:33 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
medulanet wrote

Quote:


John, maybe in your world everyone has wonderful parents who teach them everything they need to know about life and if people do bad things then they are just bad people with bad character. However, where I come from kids and some adults don't have role models and their parents aren't there for them.





I realize this. I understand weíll never have a perfect world or perfect ANYTHING.

I mentioned that the parents have the responsibility. That isnít saying that they will take such responsibility. I was just making a point.


Quote:

Therefore, I feel it is up to everyone in the community to help those who were not as fortunate as some. Just providing a positive role model is enough most of the time. I believe karate is character building because when people see a hard working caring individual giving of themself that positive energy is contagious.




I thought Iíd made myself fairly clear, but to further clarify, I donít disagree with you. My purpose in writing was in defending the boxing, wrestling, mma and other such guys here because of a remark that was made.

You can reach spiritual heights through ANY means that forces you to push your limits -which can include karate, mma or anything else. If you folks arenít aware, itís not just the EASTERN martial arts that lend themselves to the practice of character building. That can be achieved through Western means as well.

A blanket statement was made about mma as being nothing but full of egos, trash talking and bad attitudes. My point is that those things are found ANYWHERE and in any art.

Iíve known wrestling coaches to truly care about the character of their athletes. Boxing coaches as well. Iíve been involved in MMA training for some time and I can sincerely tell you that I place a huge emphasis on my personal development. I just reach a boiling point when I see people write off mma or itís practitioners as somehow ďless holyĒ.


-John

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