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#354116 - 08/05/07 12:41 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Shonuff]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Karate is not effective or ineffective. Karate can be trained functionally and non-functionally. If it's simple, direct, and alive, it doesn't matter WHAT you call it; it's going to be a functional method of training. Call it karate, gung fu, tae kwon do or whatever. The name isn't important. A solid training program IS.

And sure, there are other reasons for being involved in an art other than just to learn to fight. Personal enjoyment is one reason. But I believe 99 and 9/10s of us begin a martial art for one reason only - to learn to fight well. If I wanted to dance, I'd go to a dance hall.


-John

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#354117 - 08/05/07 03:38 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
John's close on this one, even if his focus is on changing the language of fighting from "fighting" to "alive"... for whatever reason.

Very simply, there is fighting, and there is training. The more like fighting your training is, the better your fighting skills.

Years ago, it was called "full contact" fighting, and now it's "alive" training, but in any case, and in any venue, it's fighting skills trained with reality in mind. There are "tools" that can be used in different sports applications of fighting, kata, randori, etc. that will improve your skills, but the baseline is "how will you fight when called upon to fight"?

There are a million different scenarios that can be built up to train, and a million different end results, depending on how it's done... so the "proof of the pudding" is how you fight when you fight. It doesn't matter if you do karate, judo, aikido, mma, or whatever... if you can fight when called on to do so, you've got what it takes. If not, you need more training, and more realistic training.

(Insert martial art here) is only as effective as the person who is using it, and it is only as effective as they are able to make it in the current circumstances.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#354118 - 08/05/07 04:35 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: wristtwister]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

"proof of the pudding"




My first instructor used to tell us all the time, The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you have a question take it to the mat. The Mat has no rank and never lies.

I for one believe it's better to know a few things really well, then a lot of things OK. In my first system, the only thing you learned from first black to fourth black was 3 kata's.

At a minimum of 6 years training, 3 Kata's was not much to learn but perfecting what you already knew was more then enough to keep you busy, for a lifetime.

Interestingly most students were encouraged to crosstrain in a different art, judo and jujitsu were the most common...maybe the old man was on to something.

The only thing I do worry about is people making the arts too simple, anyone can get the basics down but to get really good, takes time, like anything else.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#354119 - 08/05/07 09:48 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Wristtwister -

Quote:

John's close on this one, even if his focus is on changing the language of fighting from "fighting" to "alive"... for whatever reason.





I'm not changing the language of anything. You call it whatever you want to call it however. But it's not just fighting. I've only discussed this about a million times on here however. Yet you INSIST on making the same incorrect conclusions. Don't know why that is. Go back. Re-read. It's all here.

One more time; aliveness isn't just fighting. There ya go; one million and ONE.


-John

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#354120 - 08/06/07 01:14 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Lets agree that Jkogas is right that a lesser role for Karate is sought, lets say something like the Daido-Juku (which I'm impressed with) if it taught all the ranges and the studenst fought hard.

And all they learned was how to fight, IF they started disrespecting each other and talked crap like the wreslters, boxers and some MMA guys. They wanted to learn from old timers then wanted to fight them so they could say their better now. Almost like the Gunfighters of old west or Roion Samurias of old. Ok we can fight everybody know it.

Would this be Karate? Or a Martial art that we would be proud of? I think not, there has to be a equal measure that includes fighting skills, humuilty and respect. It mo that takes nothing away from a warrior to respect another person. I believe this is true.

A Coward runs or won't fight because has to. A Warrior runs or won't fight because he wants to. Is this good or bad?

I think its a taught good behaviour of survival.

That might sound like crap to some but I think its note worthy. But is it too much to expect that out of a human or a Art?


Edited by Neko456 (08/06/07 01:21 PM)
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#354121 - 08/06/07 02:57 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Neko -

Don't really know if you're intentionally disrespecting MMA fighters, boxers and wrestlers or not.

BUT...

Respect is something that plenty of MMA fighters have. I've seen plenty of people who've boxed and wrestled who were very respectful as well as some who weren't.

Likewise, I've seen PLENTY of traditional martial artists who were arrogant a$sholes.

So what are we to make of this and what does it say? For one thing is says that "respect" isn't something you can teach through an art. It's also not really something forced on anyone. It's something that you either have or you don't to a large extent.

People can FAKE a level of respect and then disrespect you to your back. This simply lends credence to the notion that you either have character or you don't. I don't care WHAT you study or how you train - those things will not develop a person's character if it isn't already in place to some degree.


-John

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#354122 - 08/06/07 05:32 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Neko

That side of MA is for children in my view. Adults should know how to behave already and if someone doesn't but learns through karate then either he is faking it or Karate is filling a hole in his life that it may not be suited for. Otherwise I don't see people allowing the philosophy of any TMA effect their actual behaviour.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#354123 - 08/06/07 05:36 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't want to make this a pissing contest but for most part boxers like Floyd Mayweather, MMA Tito Oztiz or Pro Wrestlers are paid to be jerks, that are in the spot light and still act a$$ to sell tickets now most of the people above are skilled fighters but they still promote a negative imagine that people are drawn too. I know most of its show but some people don't think so. Tito after seeing him as a coach I gain new found respect for, didn't put a dime in his pocket or take away. For every MMAer like Rich Franklin theres 20 Otizs or XXX. For every boxer like Oscar theres 25 Camachos. Is it an insult that the truth be told, I'm generalizing bc I don't know every boxer/MMA or Pro Wrestlers. But form the ones I've met. A lot of high school or college wrestlers are pretty tough and humble in general.

My point is that you are not the only one that know boxers, MMA fighters for most parts they are just waiting to fight, bc thats the purpose they train. The only time they willing to listen is if you whip their behind.

As for you can't teach respect, PLEASE talk about punching the bag or Choking somebody out. Talk about something you know.

I can't tell how many times in my life and other Trad Martial art Instructors or Baseball coach (that cares about more then winning a game) have taken a bully, criminal, socail misfit, or outcast and turned him into a proud respectful individual or Martial artist. People who were misfits bc they were misunderstood once they understand (sometimes it takes kicking their a$$/tough love) that people love them and care about them no matter what their differences, upbringing or socail wealth or problems. They are willing to be loved and love, and therefore respect themselves and others. Yes we have failed sometimes but 70% of the time through Martial arts and other Coaching events this can happen.

So lets talk about something you kow about. Whats your best move to setup the triangle choke? Oh that would be off topic.

You make lots of good point about the mechanics and how to train, what ifs? what to do to make yourself and others better fighting machines but you miss the mark on some of the internals of MAs or Coaching. I'd say you make a good JKD man.

But theres something to that ying and Yang thing other when to hit or take some down. I can see the "?" on your forehead. Winning is great but learning how to lose gracefully and learn from it, is also. Some can win so much that one failure/lost can ruin you.

You definitely make Black and White issuses = extreme one side or the other points of view.


Edited by Neko456 (08/06/07 05:39 PM)
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DBAckerson

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#354124 - 08/06/07 08:38 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko,
I used to share a story with my judo classes about training that fits right into your point.

There was a judo player that trained for years and never won a match when in contest, but trained hard and was constantly thrown, and thrown hard. He and his classmates all passed their tests and were ranking black belts, but still this one man never won in contests.

As the old master of the school lay dying, he called for the "loser", and promoted him and made him master of the school. When word of this got back to the others, they angrily confronted him and asked why their master had put a "loser" in charge of the school.

He said, "My master told me that he had watched me for years, and saw that I loved doing ukemi (falls), and he was proud of me that I had used my gift to instill confidence in so many of my classmates." He went on, "My master said that he knew from my testing that I could have thrown anybody in the school at any time, but he understood that winning wasn't important to me, only the training. He said that he was proud that I competed and allowed so many who were only proud of themselves if they won a trophy or medal to throw me, so I could use my gift of ukemi to spread good will."

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#354125 - 08/07/07 12:49 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Shonuff - Theres a different in being the age of an adult and being a responcible adult. Why do you think that most thugs were 18-26 years old (now its 13-26 yr old some fools go into their 50s as a child OGs in prisons) they have not grown up yet. Being 21 don't make you an adult, being mature and having a role model (like your Dad and family makes you, a Man or Lady). Without guidance they are sometimes lost for years doing petty crimes trying to fit in. They don't respect themselves nor do they repect society. Some are so wicked/childish they see the working class as victims. Everybody didn't come in he perfect world that you have. They need our help.

I'm a prime example of how the MA can keep you off the street and stop you form getting into fights and out of jail. Yes there was a hole in my personal dvelopment that needed filling and this is what was shown to me. And yes my butt had to be whipped for me to learn. I actually attacked my 1st Karate Instructor 30-40lb lighter and 4" shorter, got a righteous a$$ whipping. This is the lesson that I've passed om sometimes, so Yes being showed a better way of living and fighting. Being taught how, when and what to fight about base on MA philosophy, that becomes personal.

You say that a philosophy can't change lives, have you ever heard of Christ or Buddha (not on the same level) but philosophies that has changed many lifes.

WW a beautiful testimony of the Uke/Losers, thats looks deeper then the contest/Win. His Sensei was a wise man.


Edited by Neko456 (08/07/07 01:15 AM)
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