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#354206 - 09/06/07 08:13 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Ed

My personal opinion is that the reason nobody much mentioned the whole "tegumi"--however its defined, is that back in the day it was a common part of pretty much every kids upbringing, kinda the way soccer or baseball, or cricket is pretty commen in parts of the world.

Imagine if people stopped playing baseball and the only people that used to regulery play it were a group of really old guys.

I have a buddy that once compared it to the practice of "singlestick" back in the day in England--at one time it was really common--as common and generally understood as boxing--even metnioned in some of Conan Doyles Sherlock Holmes novels---now almost nobody does it--to the extent that when the modern reader learns that Holmes was an accompished "single stick player" most people have no idea what that means--and that was just since the late 1800's/early 1900's.

My guess is that tegumi worked the same way--grappling/wrestling tech were not a major section of specfic study because pretty much everybody already had at least SOME background in it---and they probably just "hung" the techniques they learned in the dojo on the framework they already had.

I'm sure that quite a bit was imported from China--like much of karate, heck, there may have been some hold-overs from whatever jujutsu practiced in the early days of the Kingdom, and whatever could have come over with the Satsuma.

Again, could always be wrong.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#354207 - 09/06/07 09:08 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, you did not read the quote fully. Kushi's research and practice revealed that the old style tegumi is very similar to ameteur wrestling with chokes and joint locks. Therefore, as I have always stated, no it is not like BJJ but more like submission wrestling. The folkstyle or olympic style wrestling and its grappling methods are about as close as you can get these days. Is it so hard to believe that what the okinawans developed is so disimilar to other grappling methods around the world? The kata contains the techniques and principles of fighting. For example throw your opponent down and strike him, if he pulls you down use an underhook with the other hand behind the head and work to get the keylock. It is the wrestling practice which develops the skill. Again, okinawan kata is a unique look at fighting arts and form practice of chuan fa. It is not broke kung fu. It is completely reworked to fit into the okinawan culture(hence the tegumi/grappling) and the fighting methods of the indigenous art of te.

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#354208 - 09/07/07 12:17 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Is it so hard to believe that what the okinawans developed is so disimilar to other grappling methods around the world?



good point.

what I mean is if someone trains Trad. Karate with exclusively strikes, kicks, and minimal stand-up grappling/clinch...THEN they train in, lets say chinese wrestling...then they themselves try to work in the principles of chinese wrestling to interpret aspects of their Karate kata - despite the benefits of doing so, can they then say with reasonable historical accuracy that Karate has always had Okinawan tegumi...and LOOK! here it is right in the kata! ?

Of course it doesn't matter what people call what they do - and if someone blends something into an understanding that works for their objective, no one can prove otherwise to whatever their historical claims are - the person defending the claim can say: "it works. period." and if it does, who would argue?

some things would be less subtle than others - what would you say if someone DID obviously blend modern BJJ with their Karate and chose to claim it the ancient Arts of Ryukyu: Tegumi and Te? and what if it really was good stuff? does that make it a pass for the historical inaccuracy? or is another factor that it has to 'look' Okinawan?


... just raising that as an idea for conversation.

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#354209 - 09/07/07 01:07 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, we don't have to guess. Jokei Kushi's research and experience have said that tegumi IS very similar to amateur wrestling with joint twisting, breath sealing, and hold down techniques. He didn't say chinese wrestling or mongolian wrestling or celtic wrestling. It's in Nagamine's book. So if you don't take the word of an 8th/9th Dan in Matsubayashi who is a yokozuna in okinawan sumo and tegumi expert, then what short of a time machine will it take?

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#354210 - 09/07/07 02:05 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
are you suggesting Jokei Kushi's tegumi is survived thru Nagamine's curriculum?

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#354211 - 09/07/07 02:07 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Without a doubt.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354212 - 09/07/07 07:18 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I haven't read all of Nagamine's publications, but the one's I have and the one you reference do seem to use the name Tegumi in past tense and never mentions tegumi within karate training....nor tegumi as it relates to kata. Nor does he ever say the two were blended to interpret kata.

According to the section you reference in "Tales of...", Nagamine says to the effect that 'tegumi' while growing up, was a sort of rough and tumble non-organized wrestling. And thats all he mentions for his grapping experience - But I'll assume he learned a bit of Okinawan Sumo as well - although he states himself "I do not consider myself an expert in Sumo."

Then based on Kushi Jokei's research (who was an Okinawan Sumo expert/champion - it does not say he was an expert or trained in Tegumi), the research was suppossing (since there was no documentation) that tegumi might have been connected or a predicessor to Okinawan Te.
Tegumi, he supposses based on the research, likely developed into Sumo when rules were gradually introduced.

so, by the wording of the whole section, I get the impression the 'tegumi' Nagamine knew, was in the sense of boy wrestle-play. From research (as oppossed to being physically taught) there was evidence that tegumi was Okinawan Sumo's predecessor - and from that, extrapolating the likeliness it was somehow connected with 'Te' (again, past tense).


Not mentioned in the research notes is also the likelihood of Japanese Ju Jitsu being an influence on the stand-up grapplng of Te.


just saying in a historical sense, there ISN'T a heck of a lot to go on that: 1. Nagamine was formaly trained in Tegumi. 2. Tegumi masters were still alive in his day (only Sumo masters). 3. Nagamine had old-Tegumi practice in his curriculum.

If a Tegumi master were alive on Okinawa at that time, Nagamine would have known about it and would have mentioned it...one would reasonably assume.


So, I'm thinking, if something Tegumi-like exists today (as a separate and distinct Art), it's a fairly modern (20th c.) resurrection. Which is great, but I just don't see the evidence of historical continuity in Tegumi.

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#354213 - 09/07/07 01:00 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, I think you are making some assumptions as well.

1. You are assuming Kushi's research into tegumi did not include actual practice of it.

2. You are assuming that Nagamine did not practice the various grappling arts with Kushi to assist him in his study and research.

3. I guess you did not realize that Nagamine trained the Motobu District Police judo team in both grappling and karate and was awarded a Dan rank in Judo after his team won the All Ryukyu Judo Championships. The funny thing is, I'm not sure if Nagamine ever studied Judo at all. What grappling techniques did he use then? May be the tegumi that no longer existed when he trained with masters of old style karate that may or maynot have contained elements of the old style te which more than likely contaied wrestling joint locking, chokes, pinning techniques, striking and kicking. http://www.alljapankarate.com/shoshinnagamine.html
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#354214 - 09/07/07 04:59 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
1. You are assuming he WAS trained in Tegumi. all I'm saying is the reference you gave does not include that information.

2. You are assuming he DID train with Kushi. and I'm willing to make that assumption as well....but trained in what? probably Sumo.

3. That's Judo, not Tegumi.

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#354215 - 09/07/07 05:24 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
sorry to de-rail a little, but I think this is significant -

'Karate is much more than simple punching and kicking and blocking. It is the study of weaponry and of grappling'

not my words of course but taken from here-

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=427

Personally I believe him, and feel it is relevant to stand up grappling practise and limited ground work (tegumi) being part of the older model of karate training.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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