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#354166 - 08/08/07 11:41 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

BrianS - I feel the same way Karate just like anyother art has its faults, knowing this you can patch them with cross training that covers intensively grappling and groundfighting. Like Medulant I wrestled in high school and college, I fused it into my personal defense. But it was not included in my Karate training and that goes back 1969-70s when I 1st started.





Thanks for backing me up on that. Something that I think should be obvious to all.

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#354167 - 08/08/07 11:50 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Actually, Nagamine never discussed groundfighting in kata as far as I know. However, he never taught sparring technique either, I guess that is not contained in Shorin Ryu either.





Everything he did not teach is in there then? Is naihanchi shodan how to make a shrimp gumbo?

My bad, I must have missed that post. Thanks for the insult though.

Quote:

One thing that helped me see the groundfighting connection in karate was to actually study BJJ and imagine Naihanchi technqiues both on my back and lying on an opponent on my stomach.




This is the problem. YOU wanted there to be a connection so YOU imagined one. In other words, YOU made it up. It was not always there Imagine what we could all see differently.
I think tensho is a disciplinary kata used against students with overly active imiginations. They were forced to stand in front and were repeatedly slapped until they were right again. I can see it now!!!

BJJ is actually learned on the ground. In case you didn't know naihanchi is on the feet. How useful is learning to groundfight on your feet? Makes no sense. Silly.
_________________________
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#354168 - 08/08/07 11:55 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Neko, I agree on the purpose of the forum being discussion. My point is more about the "manner" of the discussion. We seem more often to pursue discussions as if they should be "won"... rather than shared.


Harlan, I don't know what Abernethy's lineage is. Here's his website for further research:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/

But, what difference does it make? Abernethy is a karate guy - teaching karate. Unless the discussion parameters are are limited to "...techniques from Mr. Miyagi...or another 'founding' karateka...", I think Abetnethy qualifies as a representative of the art.

Before we can debate what is, or isn't, in karate, we'd first have to agree what karate is, itself.

That was the point I tried to make above:

"Unless you get into pretty detailed specifics, what IS or IS NOT in karate is about as debatable as what is or is not in cooking. There are (and have been) so many varieties taught by so many different teachers that it's like stacking sand."

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#354169 - 08/08/07 01:10 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Before we can debate what is, or isn't, in karate, we'd first have to agree what karate is, itself.

That was the point I tried to make above:

"Unless you get into pretty detailed specifics, what IS or IS NOT in karate is about as debatable as what is or is not in cooking. There are (and have been) so many varieties taught by so many different teachers that it's like stacking sand."




Joss -

Point understood. While karate can be anything to anyone, I think that we can look at the historical evidence and traditions available to make an informed view of how karate typically is.

I do not question medulanet's ability to see relate his wrestling experience to his karate. I find it pretty impressive actually, in the same way that Oldman's ability to pull bunkai from kata is impressive.

The point of contention that BrianS and I have is that medulanet is making the leap from saying the HE FOUND groundfighting in kata to IT WAS ALWAYS THERE ie; it was taught in a widespread manner. That is a large leap, IMHO.

Again, to chastize folks for not seeing "it", when "it" was not really taught that way (for the most part) is unhelpful at best.
_________________________
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#354170 - 08/08/07 02:25 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: MattJ]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I see.

Frankly, I think that claiming ANY specific bunkai "was always there" in kata is dubious. The only thing that was "always there" is what the author designed into it.

Who has EVER been given THE "official" bunkai that a karate kata's author designed in? No one that I've ever heard of.

Everything we have from kata is a recent interpretation, our own or someone else's. I think that in itself is the reason for a major contemporary controversy. It's not all about WHICH bunkai is official. If there was at least a clear and widly accepted agreement that bunkai was intended, the air would be thick with WHICH bunkai that was. And it's not.

Twenty years ago, few were aboard that the bunkai was even the intent, and we still can't all agree.

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#354171 - 08/08/07 03:04 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Last I remember, Motobu did pretty good in a ring fight.




Motobu got his ass whooped by a sumo wrestler continuously until he gave up and decided that Karate is for civil self defense only and does not work against proffessional fighters.




Interesting, do you happen to have a name or even a source for this? I only know of three documented defeats. One was to his brother practitioiner of Motobu Ryu, a system of Udundi or palace hand, Itarashiki a karate expert, and Kentsu Yabu, another karate expert.




My Art of Karate Jutsu - As compiled by Patrick McCarthy
In the section entitled Tale of a great Bujin by Shoshin Nagamine, Pg 44 a story that comes from someone named Kin Ryojin, paragraph 5

"The techniques of Kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield."
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#354172 - 08/08/07 03:30 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, I know that is said about kata. However, Motobu's defeating a professional boxer seems to disprove that. In addition this seems to go against the roots of karate. But, I don't remember Motobu ever saying that like you implied/stated. Nagamine's goal was to teach karate as a way, which he did. However, he taught the karate jutsu he was taught and at one point taught the true fighting applications. However, that was a long time ago. In addition, lets assume they were never made for that purpose does not mean I cannot use them in such a way. A steak knife was made to be used in eating, but I can surely stab and kill a man with it. A shotgun intended for hunting can actually be used as one of the better personal protection firearms avaiable. Some things to think about.

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#354173 - 08/08/07 03:34 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Nagamine never discussed groundfighting in kata as far as I know. However, he never taught sparring technique either, I guess that is not contained in Shorin Ryu either.





Everything he did not teach is in there then? Is naihanchi shodan how to make a shrimp gumbo?

My bad, I must have missed that post. Thanks for the insult though.

Quote:

One thing that helped me see the groundfighting connection in karate was to actually study BJJ and imagine Naihanchi technqiues both on my back and lying on an opponent on my stomach.




This is the problem. YOU wanted there to be a connection so YOU imagined one. In other words, YOU made it up. It was not always there Imagine what we could all see differently.
I think tensho is a disciplinary kata used against students with overly active imiginations. They were forced to stand in front and were repeatedly slapped until they were right again. I can see it now!!!

BJJ is actually learned on the ground. In case you didn't know naihanchi is on the feet. How useful is learning to groundfight on your feet? Makes no sense. Silly.




Don't worry Brian, I believe you cannot use your karate ithe way in which I do. You don't have to convince me. However, if I showed you how, would you believe me then? May be I can show you my fighting application for my kata, and you can show me how to make shrimp gumbo with yours.

Top
#354174 - 08/08/07 04:10 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Don't worry Brian, I believe you cannot use your karate ithe way in which I do. You don't have to convince me. However, if I showed you how, would you believe me then? May be I can show you my fighting application for my kata, and you can show me how to make shrimp gumbo with yours.






Apparently, sarcasm is taught through kata as well.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#354175 - 08/08/07 04:38 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Everything he did not teach is in there then? Is naihanchi shodan how to make a shrimp gumbo?




Yes MattJ, sarcasm is even taught in All American Goju kata as well.

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