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#354126 - 08/07/07 01:32 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
One typo

Everybody didn't come up in the perfect world that you have.
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#354127 - 08/07/07 05:36 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Mind if I chip in a bit?

Daido Juku, is the perfect example of what happens when you put an art and make it 'alive'. Daido Juku Karate although they still wear some protection for obvious reasons, instills efficient and useful skills while at the same time discard inefficient ones.

Alive isn't just fighting. Alive is to be alive. It is not a static way of training. It's hard to explain in words. Basically, kicking a sandbag 100 times is pretty much dead, but trying to kick a moving target that changes position depending on you, that is alive. Trying to grapple someone who is trying NOT to get grappled, that is alive.

-Taison out
_________________________
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#354128 - 08/07/07 06:37 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Shonuff]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


That side of MA is for children in my view.





And I would argue that any character should be fostered by the parents at a young age, and certainly not by anyone else (ie, a martial arts school, elementary school, etc., etc). The parents have the responsibility there.


Quote:


Adults should know how to behave already and if someone doesn't but learns through karate then either he is faking it or Karate is filling a hole in his life that it may not be suited for. Otherwise I don't see people allowing the philosophy of any TMA effect their actual behaviour.





As I mentioned, character is typically already there or it isn't. Training a few hours a week in a martial arts school doesn't promote "character" anymore than going to CHURCH promotes character. The people either believe that character is important or they don't. It is usually the underlying character that leads people to church, etc. to begin with and not the other way around.

It's been WIDELY known that thieves and con-artists have filled our churches and institutions. Same goes for damn near anything else. The ritualistic practice of "moves" doesn't make a person spiritual if he isn't already.

Sorry for the continued thread drift. Just thought I'd throw that in there.



-John

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#354129 - 08/07/07 07:14 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:


That side of MA is for children in my view.





And I would argue that any character should be fostered by the parents at a young age, and certainly not by anyone else (ie, a martial arts school, elementary school, etc., etc). The parents have the responsibility there.


Quote:


Adults should know how to behave already and if someone doesn't but learns through karate then either he is faking it or Karate is filling a hole in his life that it may not be suited for. Otherwise I don't see people allowing the philosophy of any TMA effect their actual behaviour.





As I mentioned, character is typically already there or it isn't. Training a few hours a week in a martial arts school doesn't promote "character" anymore than going to CHURCH promotes character. The people either believe that character is important or they don't. It is usually the underlying character that leads people to church, etc. to begin with and not the other way around.

It's been WIDELY known that thieves and con-artists have filled our churches and institutions. Same goes for damn near anything else. The ritualistic practice of "moves" doesn't make a person spiritual if he isn't already.

Sorry for the continued thread drift. Just thought I'd throw that in there.



-John




Character moulding is an aspect of karate. Most Okinawan masters today talk about karate as a way to create responsibel people and tell you that the ultimate goal of karate is to have a prosperous society in harmony with the rest of the world.

The bubishi has an entire section on etiquette and behaviour and even advice concerning young adults and adolescents.

In fact ANY SPORT/PHYLOSOPHY that allows people to focus their energy on personal and/or group achievement, setting their personal limits to new heights and/or achieving knowledge and insight through hard training will give the fullfilment of being somebody and thus building stamina and character. This without moral preaching of any kind.

I can understand Neko when talking about the disrespects some wrestlers show in interviews talking how they are going to trash their opponents and beat them up badly for pure enjoyment, when their public is for the most part youngsters who don not train these physical activities and do not understand the consequences of fighting. They tend to think that this behaviour is standard.

There is no garantie to moral though. We have an ex-member serving now 30 years for cold blooded murder and ready to serve another 10 years for heroin smugling. He started training at age 14 and became through his adolescent years a confident young man, ..... with bad goals.
During his adolescent years he was not involved in criminal activities, and I would not have thaught him to become this way.

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#354130 - 08/07/07 11:02 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm going to start from the beginning and try and get this thread back on track.

Quote:

Is Karate less effective because it covers too much and tries to accomplish too much?





Depends on your goals. It is NOT an effective art for cage fighting, but it is an effective art for self defense.

Quote:

If a coach or Instructor taught just fighting would it be more accepted as a effective Combat system?






If just fighting is your goal then you should leave all the other stuff out IMO. Not my goal though.

Quote:

If you took all the traditions, ethics, moral, respect and morale building out and just taught fighting. Respect nobody and fight anybody and anything, would that make it more accepted?





Not to me and I hope nobody considers this,lol.


Quote:

It has most if not all the techniques of Thai-boxing, Praying mantis and Wing Chun Gung-fu, Silat & Kali empty hands, Boxing and Savate all the so called contact sports or Combat arts. If you just taught combat application, would it make it more accepted as that?





What karate has is not the problem. The problem is the way it is taught in alot of schools.

Quote:

Is trying to accomplish all this, Mind, Body, & Spirit stuff. Too much?







No, gives me something, a goal to strive for.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354131 - 08/07/07 11:19 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't think I'm faking and though alot of people I went to high school with are in prison or dead. I'm still here. Upbring means a lot my family was typical lower mid class in the USA (blessed but didn't know it). But I was a rebel as many young adults are and lost, not a bad kid, just mislead and lost. It might be true that upbring helps the young not make major bad decisions, like not riding in a stolen car, or whatever.

But once I started training in the MAs I didn't have time to get in trouble. And won't fight unless I had. As I mentioned I attacked my smaller 1st Karate Instructor, sicked on him by a body builder that he just whipped, but I wanted to impress. After that a$$ whipping I took, I want to be like the Karate guy and found he was much like my Dad, there was a reason why law exist and why you should respect your elders and society. Some people just need to have their butt whipped and eyes open to see it was right there all along.

I believe I was lost and could have been dead if I hadn't started MA training. I have other students that has told me the same story almost, they were worst then I.

People Con the Chruch, but that don't mean you should turn away the next needing person. 1 out 10 if they can be reached its worth it. I know I'm glad someone reachout to me.

I know this is true with Trad Instructors, I have a note book full of notes of changes in peoples lives for the better from them or their parents, teachers and friends. Yes I've lost some but nearly 70% progress on to be a better person then being lost.

Of course the younger the more moldable.

With both Parents working, we have to go back to old school, it takes a entire village/community to raise a child. Its not whose child is it, Its what child/person does society want in it.

Is this one of the purpose of Karate? I think its embedded if you care, about more then winning a fight.

Please see BrianS reply above.


Edited by Neko456 (08/07/07 11:31 AM)
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#354132 - 08/07/07 11:49 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'Karate is about heart.' Mileage varies on the 'effectiveness' of it...depending on the student, training and point of view.

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#354133 - 08/07/07 12:03 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I don't think I'm faking and though alot of people I went to high school with are in prison or dead. I'm still here. Upbring means a lot my family was typical lower mid class in the USA (blessed but didn't know it). But I was a rebel as many young adults are and lost, not a bad kid, just mislead and lost. It might be true that upbring helps the young not make major bad decisions, like not riding in a stolen car, or whatever.

But once I started training in the MAs I didn't have time to get in trouble. And won't fight unless I had. As I mentioned I attacked my smaller 1st Karate Instructor, sicked on him by a body builder that he just whipped, but I wanted to impress. After that a$$ whipping I took, I want to be like the Karate guy and found he was much like my Dad, there was a reason why law exist and why you should respect your elders and society. Some people just need to have their butt whipped and eyes open to see it was right there all along.

I believe I was lost and could have been dead if I hadn't started MA training. I have other students that has told me the same story almost, they were worst then I.

People Con the Chruch, but that don't mean you should turn away the next needing person. 1 out 10 if they can be reached its worth it. I know I'm glad someone reachout to me.

I know this is true with Trad Instructors, I have a note book full of notes of changes in peoples lives for the better from them or their parents, teachers and friends. Yes I've lost some but nearly 70% progress on to be a better person then being lost.

Of course the younger the more moldable.

With both Parents working, we have to go back to old school, it takes a entire village/community to raise a child. Its not whose child is it, Its what child/person does society want in it.





Perfecting technique is what karate is about. Repetition until you get it exactly right. Karate teaches you how to use YOUR body to it's greatest potential and gives you an almost limitless aresenal to choose from. Although you may only rely on a handful of personal techniques it is probably different than another karateka's.
All of this builds character. Karate changes people, I don't care what anyone says, it does.
If not for karate I would not have been able to deal with things in my life. Karate is a blessing and a priveledge given to me by God. It's not All about fighting nd kicking ass,lol.

Quote:

Is this one of the purpose of Karate? I think its embedded if you care, about more then winning a fight.





Yep. Great discussion Neko!


Edited by BrianS (08/07/07 12:05 PM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354134 - 08/07/07 12:06 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
The thread drift is I think a good drift.

My first instructor was a kid from East St. Louis growing up in a bad area without much direction, until he found Karate. Back then there were not many schools and to be accepted as a student was a privliage and one that could be taken away if the student did follow certain guidelines.

Ahhh the good old days....

Karate probably saved his life both on the streets and in his heart.

But as Americans we tend to pull the poetry out of things and go straight for the practical application.

We make a better paint brush, but do we paint a better painting?
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#354135 - 08/07/07 12:22 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Depends on your goals. It is NOT an effective art for cage fighting, but it is an effective art for self defense.




Karate is about dealing with attacks presented to you. ANY ATTACKS. Are you speaking specifically about fighting in a cage or just any competition or ring fighting. Last I remember, Motobu did pretty good in a ring fight. I suspect the outcome would have been the same if they were in a cage. In addition karateka like Kyan did very well in challenge matches as well. He defeated a very good Judoka in one such match. Maybe your karate is only good in self defense, but mine covers much more than that.

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