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#354106 - 08/02/07 02:15 PM Is Karate less effective because it covers too ...
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Is Karate less effective because it covers too much and tries to accomplish too much?

If a coach or Instructor taught just fighting would it be more accepted as a effective Combat system?

If you took all the traditions, ethics, moral, respect and morale building out and just taught fighting. Respect nobody and fight anybody and anything, would that make it more accepted?

It has most if not all the techniques of Thai-boxing, Praying mantis and Wing Chun Gung-fu, Silat & Kali empty hands, Boxing and Savate all the so called contact sports or Combat arts. If you just taught combat application, would it make it more accepted as that?

Maybe, Maybe not. But it would make it something else. It would not be Karate, maybe it could be called Karazy. But it definitely wouldn't be Karate.

My way of thinking is Good Karate is effective because it is Karate. It how you train not what you train. Karate ultimate goal is not just to learn how to fight, thats part of it but not all of it. In fact Karate teaches you not to fight, unless...

Is trying to accomplish all this, Mind, Body, & Spirit stuff. Too much?


Edited by Neko456 (08/02/07 02:22 PM)
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#354107 - 08/02/07 08:30 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hello Neko

I think the idea that Karate is or is not any one thing is not really realistic. Just the fighting is as much Karate as just the character building exercise. I'm sure many will disagree with this point.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is not what you train but how you train it. This fact is precisely why Karate has become so much derided and the other arts you mentioned are often placed on a pedastal: They are commonly trained with greater emphasis on partner work and pressured contact while karate, commonly devotes less time to this area and more time to the other more ephemeral bits.

I see this as something of a Do vs Jutsu question, at least as far as the two philosophies are commonly portrayed. Karate-jutsuka portray what they do as fighting practice with limited time spent on non combat relevant exercises while Karate-do is seen as exercise for exercises (or sports) sake where ephemeral non combative training is the norm.

The thing is that this focus on ephemera is still evident among Karate-jutsuka who can waffle for days about body mechanics etc believing that their Karate-jutsu uses the correct technique for combat. Yet this intelectualising of fine detail is precisely what takes the karateka away from the business of hitting things that hit back, and ultimately much of that fine detail matters so little in a real conflict that concentration on it is of almost no value.
The Do philosophy of endless repetition is the best way to build good body mechanics and fluid relaxed powerful technique, regardless of which variation in form one uses. The jutsu method of practicing contact drills and sparring with a partner is the only way to learn to fight.

In reality you don't have one without the other, the two ideas are one and the same.
One does not become "Jutsu" strong of body without a tough training regime both in terms of how physically tiring and in terms of how high the level of pressure being applied by opponents is. One also does not gain "Do" determination and mental fortitude without the emotional stress caused by having to push ones self through such difficult training.
In a real conflict with moving targets one will not be able to apply techniques without having done extensive "jutsu" partner work. Similarly in a real conflict (or so the theory went among fighters of the time) one will not be able to marshal himself to immediate decisive action in the midst of the emotional stress and shock of a real conflict situation unless he has developed "Do" calm, inner strength and Zanshin.

This meeting of physical fitness combat skill and mental strength is precisely what is being preached by modern "Real Combat" self defense experts who talk about training for adrenalin dump and the psychology of conflict and finishing fights in 3 seconds or less etc etc etc...


So is Karate less effective because it covers too much? Well no, not if the training is put together so that the relevance of each aspect is understood and all the aspects complement each other leaving anything redundent, as (I feel) it was meant to.

Is karate training always put together so that there is no redundency in what is trained? I wouldn't like to comment but I'd guess not...


Edited by Shonuff (08/02/07 08:34 PM)
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#354108 - 08/02/07 08:52 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Quote:

Is trying to accomplish all this, Mind, Body, & Spirit stuff. Too much?





Never. We're not just tying to build fighters, we're trying to build better people/citizens. At least that's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's the difference between being a fighter and being a warrior/martial artist/kareteka/etc. A fighter fights... a warrior defends, protects, inspires, creates a better world for his fellow man.

IMHO
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#354109 - 08/02/07 09:31 PM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: JMWcorwin]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
There is also the point I saw made on another thread:

Really and truly, most of us are into karate for fun, i.e. we are not gladiators, soldiers, body gaurds, we don't live in war zones or post apocalyptic dark ages where bandits lurk in every corner. We are just guys and gals with jobs and families who enjoy working up a sweat and play fighting.
Therefore the only real measure of Karate's effectiveness is our individual enjoyment of the classes we attend and so long as cramming the three battles into those classes leaves us going home feeling happy and content that is all that matters.
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#354110 - 08/03/07 12:18 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
I believe this "karate is less effective" comes from media. More of what people see in movies, bad instruction, kata centric, no real/live training,sport-it-frication, and not doing well in MMA competitions. I don't thinking having self-improvement hinders your fighting ability. Plus isn't self-improvement part of every martial art?

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#354111 - 08/03/07 03:10 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Usenthemighty]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
but therin lies the difference,

average tough guy goes to Karotty - its a joke, generally. yet many stay as its 'cool'.

average tough guy goes to BJJ/MMA/Thai Boxing/Judo - they stick around as its NO joke,

but your average Joe walks into this class and turns right around, blimey they are actually fighting in here!

its the way we train, and for what reasons that is significant in all of this IMO.

good martial arts tend to be small set ups with dedicated studets, thats a good place to start IMO.
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#354112 - 08/05/07 02:39 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Is karate training always put together so that there is no redundency in what is trained? I wouldn't like to comment but I'd guess not...


I believe that there is nothing wrong with repeating and building upon a techniques, because you know basics you can do the intermediate and advance techniques. So repetition or redundacy is Ok, in most arts like Karate you build upon your base and this happens over and over. Its the same way a jab right cross works, you jab, jab, jab then that sets up the right cross (I use boxing bc its simple). It seems to be by surprise but bc the jab hurts/works the RC can finish.

As others have stated that and we all have noted that all Karate is not the same, even up under the same style or dojo. I really hate the guys (they pay he bills) that don't want serious fighting techniques and prefer the tourney moves because it can be experience monthy or 6-7 time a year.
What I try to stress thought there is nothing wrong with tourney spar, you have to train serious too. It's really true that you fight or respond the way you train.
In our combat class you are surprised alot, the tourney guys are fast and strong they have all the techniuqes of the Combat students, if not more diverstity. But when surprised or they hit with a combo low high rhk or whatever, that hits they don't follow up, they smiling until they are decked. Now the same combination in combat mode you hit to grion or low ab and slow it down, wait for his knees to buckle then throw the rhk kick to the head r neck and follow him with a finish. The same techiques just different intent and timing.

You startle a combat students and their feet stay on ground mosts time, angles and hands and elbows, sweep, throws and locks and strikes while you holding the lock. Not a lighting fast touch low high rhk or hk-rhk to head and prancing around with your hands in the air, and startled when u are swept and punched from behind. Let me get off my soap box.

Nothing wrong with torney fighting when you understand where it fixs in the scheme of things, it teaches long to mid range controlled complicated delivery using timing, distance, speed, bridging the gap, fellowship, showmanship and sportmanship. Some of that has no business in a real fight imho. Some think this is all Karate is.

Now both learn the ethics and honor of the art, but intent is difference in some cases. Of course some can do both.

I'm still torn by the dojos that techniques are too deadly to spar even in there class and only stage combat drills no free movement or what if. Sorta like Iaido with empty hands.

Of course I have seen some dojos that really train to tough to spar outside their dojo r in tourneys. Their methods would start a REAL fight and definitely DQd.

Karate is different to each school or sensei, its too diversed and represents too many ways or no ways.


Edited by Neko456 (08/05/07 02:53 AM)

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#354113 - 08/05/07 08:32 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Is Karate less effective because it covers too much and tries to accomplish too much?





It's not just karate. ANY art that covers too much and all is going to be less effective for training a person to fight well and defend himself.

Any instructor that is focused on covering a lot of stuff is well, more concerned about teaching the "art" rather than training the individual to fight. There IS a distinct difference.

Simplicity rules in fighting. That's pretty much common sense. If an art is complicated and takes 15 years to learn well, that's insane imo. Imagine how good someone could be if they had a narrower focus!

Just my opinion.

-John

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#354114 - 08/05/07 10:18 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too [Re: JKogas]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Odd, my Krotty is real simple.
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#354115 - 08/05/07 11:34 AM Re: Is Karate less effective because it covers too ... [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Quote:

Is karate training always put together so that there is no redundency in what is trained? I wouldn't like to comment but I'd guess not...





I believe that there is nothing wrong with repeating and building upon a techniques, because you know basics you can do the intermediate and advance techniques.




I agree repetition is not redundency.

What I was getting at is the idea that in order to have the complete art of Karate be as effective a training method as it can be, the relevance to fighting of each and every aspect of the training must be known, understood and actively pushed.

An example of this might be found in a school that practices meditation as part of their karate class. If this school still wants students to become good fighters, the students must be made to understand how meditation helps them reach that goal and then use the right kind of meditation for the right amounts of time to complement their other training without hindering them.

Ultimately JKogas is right, the simplest and most direct route is going to be the best and any art/system that has emphasis on things that do not NEED emphasis in order to teach fighting will be detracting from the potential effectiveness of the training method.

However, there is a big difference between less effective and innefective, and I would suggest that few people who have stayed in karate have stayed because they only wish to learn to fight.
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