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#354003 - 08/02/07 08:46 AM What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID
VietPanda Offline
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Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 103
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4
OK I'm not sure if this guy really is a Kungfu expert
But how would I get out of a situation like this?

Thanx!
_________________________
~Viet Panda~

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#354004 - 08/02/07 09:02 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: VietPanda]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Learn BJJ.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#354005 - 08/02/07 09:54 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: VietPanda]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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"It is almost impossible for a person primarily trained in punches and kicks to avoid being taken down by a BJJ practicioner."

To avoid being taken down, learn to sprawl. Learn to grapple period. Doesn't have to be BJJ and it doesn't make BJJ superior, just better at grappling.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#354006 - 08/02/07 11:56 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: BrianS]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
What he said. I personally hate it when people say you wanna grapple learn BJJ as if it is the only grappling art in the world.

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#354007 - 08/03/07 04:11 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Usenthemighty]
Shonuff Offline
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I thought the kung fu guy gave a good accounting of himself especially as a non grappler vs one of the best in the world.

Looking at that vid I cant see how a sprawl would've worked, the grappler came in too high. Avoiding being taken down can be done purely with close striking methods, primarily because close striking should include an element of controling manipulation, but the fact remains it can be done, it is just hard and like any method not completely reliable.

Hell, looking at the vid if there had been no wall the kungfu man may yet have escaped that particular attempt, or if he had just avoided trying to kick above the waist a second time as gracie was coming in.
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#354008 - 08/03/07 04:28 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Royce Gracie vs Jason Delucia? Didn't they fight each other during UFC 2? If this was recorded before UFC 2 it seems as if the Gracies were picking people they knew Royce could beat to promote their art through the UFC. And if it was recorded after I would assume that Jason would not fight Royce a second time with no grappling training. So either he just sucks at grappling after training and fighting Royce a second time or he is an idiot for not training in grappling and thinking he could win. Either way he was able to last as long as he did with athleticism and no real technique.

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#354009 - 08/03/07 06:49 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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WAS that Delucia? If so, didn't he have grappling training? Didn't he train with the Gracies for a while?

Royce is NOT the world's greatest grappler either. He never HAS been. Probably average at best in terms of black belt level.


-John

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#354010 - 08/03/07 09:42 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: VietPanda]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I can't view the video but did watch the UFC fight. Back then most strikers didn't understand Grappling and had false confidence that they could hit and hurt the Grappler
before he grabbed them.

The Strength of Bjj or Wrestling is that its a full committed sport you physically force your will on the other person, and with JJ they are use to striking. So they know your way and you don't know theres (back then).

The Gracies have been competing like that for more then 70 years its the way they were trained. Its was just the way it was, if he is prepared for what you can offer and U are not prepared for his arsenal that happens.

When you train to throw bodyweight around all the time in training it is a tremendous advantage compared to just mentally thiking I'd do this instead.

It is amazing that it was said that Royce was one of the weakest link in the Graice's Clan. That says something about BJJ training methods and family. They are still great grapplers but he MA worlds caught up with other methods.


Edited by Neko456 (08/03/07 09:45 AM)
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#354011 - 08/03/07 11:08 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Shonuff]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
Quote:

Avoiding being taken down can be done purely with close striking methods



Such as what? Besides kneeing the exact time they shoot in striking does noting. It at least does noting to me and my training buddies when we double leg take down. Plus when Royce changed levels that was the time he had to sprawl and clinch up. Jason Delucia is 33-20-1 thats an ok record. I mean its not like 22-2-0 Rich Franklin(my favorite fighter), but he's ok.

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#354012 - 08/03/07 12:09 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#354013 - 08/03/07 01:06 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: VietPanda]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Simple.

Don't take/make a challenge match w/ Royce Gracie...
Unless you plan to use a weapon.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354014 - 08/03/07 01:11 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Usenthemighty]
everyone Offline
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Quote:

What he said. I personally hate it when people say you wanna grapple learn BJJ as if it is the only grappling art in the world.




There are very effective Chinese/Indian/Mongolian wrestling styles that may fit more closely with your training in Kungfu. The principals are different and feels very distinct from BJJ. In some ways, I have found these wrestling styles to be not only better integrated with my Kungfu but also to have some advantages over BJJ.

The main advantages I have found are: It is not as commonly taught so opponents donít know what to expect. There is less reliance on using your clothing or your opponents clothing to execute a technique. Striking feels more integrated and developed into the ground fighting.

This has been my experience, others may have a different view. But for the above reasons (and others), I discontinued my training in BJJ (at an MMA school) and am solely training at a more TMA (with some competing in MMA) Kungfu school now.

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#354015 - 08/03/07 01:15 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
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Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How did we let him get away? I guess busy training other Kung-fu MMA fighters now. How old is Sifu Jason now?
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DBAckerson

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#354016 - 08/03/07 01:51 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: JMWcorwin]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Simple.

Don't take/make a challenge match w/ Royce Gracie...
Unless you plan to use a weapon.




Or unless your are Matt Hughes. Actually, any skilled figher with good wrestling, submission defense, and ground and pound might do well.

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#354017 - 08/03/07 01:56 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: everyone]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

This has been my experience, others may have a different view. But for the above reasons (and others), I discontinued my training in BJJ (at an MMA school) and am solely training at a more TMA (with some competing in MMA) Kungfu school now.




Try it from a wrestling perspective. Many wrestlers like to stay on their feet and strike or ground and pound from top and feel fighting from your back is just not a smart strategy. Their take on bjj/submission wrestling is legit and IMO MUCH better than most of the bjj out there. Just look at Dan Henderson and Randy Couture.

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#354018 - 08/03/07 02:18 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: medulanet]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Quote:

Actually, any skilled figher with good wrestling, submission defense, and ground and pound might do well.






Of course,

But I think the post was about stand up strikers vs. BJJ.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354019 - 08/03/07 02:42 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: JMWcorwin]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
In that case it depends on the person. IMO if you intend of fighting in one phase, you better be able to keep it in that phase. With that said it's a no brianer for strikers to have strong takedown defense and ground fighters strong take downs.
Think Wanderlei Silva vs Hidehiko Yoshida.

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#354020 - 08/03/07 02:51 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: JMWcorwin]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, I consider myself a striker. It doesn't matter the position, but I train to use my strikes effectively no matter the situation. In fact, ground and pound and striking on the ground is one of the most effective ways to neutralize a bjj guy. It is also how strikers can defeat superior grapplers. If you understand the basics and can develop good skill in grappling you can defeat a superior grappler with effective striking and positioning. So why must a striker be pigeon holed as either stand up or ground and pound? If you are a striker then strike.

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#354021 - 08/03/07 02:55 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Usenthemighty]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Avoiding being taken down can be done purely with close striking methods



Such as what? Besides kneeing the exact time they shoot in striking does noting. It at least does noting to me and my training buddies when we double leg take down. Plus when Royce changed levels that was the time he had to sprawl and clinch up. Jason Delucia is 33-20-1 thats an ok record. I mean its not like 22-2-0 Rich Franklin(my favorite fighter), but he's ok.




Usen, maybe you should join Crocop's School of Fighting. His method of knee striking a wrestler shooting in is very effective.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...h&plindex=0

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#354022 - 08/03/07 03:35 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: medulanet]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
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Quote:

If you understand the basics and can develop good skill in grappling you can defeat a superior grappler with effective striking and positioning.




Exactly.

But your explanations still all revolve around learning grappling. That's all I was trying to say. If you don't have at least an understanding of the techniques, you don't stand much chance in that scenario.

I don't remember exactly the guy's name, but there was an ex-pro boxer, Frank something, who fought one of Ruas' guys in an early UFC. He brutally beat this guy down with good sprawling and knee/elbow strikes when the BJJ guy would shoot. Lots of blood. He never submitted, but they did stop it because of the amounts of blood and where it was coming from. That's the perfect example of a true stand up fighter beating a BJJ fighter..... Don't let it go to the ground. Easier said than done though.

*sorry I don't remember the fighters' names,,, brain on slow mo this morning.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354023 - 08/03/07 03:43 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: JMWcorwin]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

If you understand the basics and can develop good skill in grappling you can defeat a superior grappler with effective striking and positioning.




Exactly.

But your explanations still all revolve around learning grappling. That's all I was trying to say. If you don't have at least an understanding of the techniques, you don't stand much chance in that scenario.




But sprawling IS grappling. So if you learn to sprawl you are learning to grapple. And that is my point. To defeat a grappler you must have some knowledge of grappling, and this comes from learning grappling. The bottom line is that if you are a striker and you don't know how to grapple at all you will be in for a long day, period.

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#354024 - 08/03/07 03:44 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: medulanet]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Right.

What did I say that didn't match that?

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#354025 - 08/03/07 04:04 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: JMWcorwin]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
The thing that didn't match was your implication that a sprawl and brawl striker is a "true stand up fighter" and one should not have to learn grappling to be an effective stand up fighter.

Quote:

Exactly.

But your explanations still all revolve around learning grappling. That's all I was trying to say. If you don't have at least an understanding of the techniques, you don't stand much chance in that scenario.

I don't remember exactly the guy's name, but there was an ex-pro boxer, Frank something, who fought one of Ruas' guys in an early UFC. He brutally beat this guy down with good sprawling and knee/elbow strikes when the BJJ guy would shoot. Lots of blood. He never submitted, but they did stop it because of the amounts of blood and where it was coming from. That's the perfect example of a true stand up fighter beating a BJJ fighter..... Don't let it go to the ground. Easier said than done though.

*sorry I don't remember the fighters' names,,, brain on slow mo this morning.




Then I pointed out that sprawling is wrestling and a striker must learn such grappling skills to be effective against a grappler. And then you said "Right." So at first you disagreed with me, then agreed, and then disagreed again all in one statement. And now you are agreeing. Am I missing something, are we talking about the same thing, or are you disagreeing with anything I have posted in this thread?

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#354026 - 08/03/07 04:10 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: medulanet]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Nah,

Didn't mean to imply that. I was just trying to give an example of a stand up fighter with a good understanding of grappling technique/defense to illustrate my statement of

"But your explanations still all revolve around learning grappling. That's all I was trying to say. If you don't have at least an understanding of the techniques, you don't stand much chance in that scenario."

_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354027 - 08/03/07 04:22 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: JMWcorwin]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay, I get it now.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#354028 - 08/03/07 08:51 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Usenthemighty]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Usen

What precisely one does depends entirely on what is happening. In meds vid of cro cop kneeing the guy, he escapes several attempts at takedown before the knee. I would suggest hitting the guy before he regains his balance. Also one can use strikes to keep a grappler on the back foot. There's lots of stuff but its all very situational and no none of it is simple.

Personally I'm not sure about the idea that that any control/manipulation knowledge should be classed as wrestling. It is only the rules of modern sports like boxing that seperated the ways of holding and disturbing balance/weight from striking.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#354029 - 08/03/07 09:34 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Shonuff]
Gothrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 33
Wouldnt keeping distance from a BJJ fighter work? Once they get close in the can get you in an underhook, take u down, sweep u, whatever. But if u kept ur distance, with say, kicks or striking if u hold the reach advantage, would that've worked?
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Mind Over Matter

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#354030 - 08/03/07 09:40 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Gothrocker]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Wouldnt keeping distance from a BJJ fighter work?




Quote:


..But if u kept ur distance, with say, kicks or striking if u hold the reach advantage, would that've worked?





Like on the other side of the street? Sure that would work! Kind of like Hommick vs. Gurgel - don't engage and just stay away from them, working pot-shots. You'll stay safe that way for certain.

Unless they can play the same game. Then you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.



-John

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#354031 - 08/04/07 02:12 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: medulanet]
VietPanda Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 103
First of all, I thank you all very, very much for the thoughtful replies!

Secondly, regarding this:
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Avoiding being taken down can be done purely with close striking methods



Such as what? Besides kneeing the exact time they shoot in striking does noting. It at least does noting to me and my training buddies when we double leg take down. Plus when Royce changed levels that was the time he had to sprawl and clinch up. Jason Delucia is 33-20-1 thats an ok record. I mean its not like 22-2-0 Rich Franklin(my favorite fighter), but he's ok.




Usen, maybe you should join Crocop's School of Fighting. His method of knee striking a wrestler shooting in is very effective.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...h&plindex=0



That was an amazing video, I can clearly see how that knee was extremely destructive to the wrestler.
However, he did eventually end up grappling him.
Fortunately this fight was in the ring, in a real street fight, some people might even use 'dirty' tactics like biting or eye gouges once they grapple their opponent.
What could we do then?

Some people have mentioned learning some grappling techniques, so if I do, what art/technique should i learn/use?

Once again, thanks for the input!
_________________________
~Viet Panda~

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#354032 - 08/04/07 03:03 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: VietPanda]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
For the best training move to Vegas and train at Xtreme Couture. If that is not an option learn bjj/submission grappling from a wrestling perspective, which will teach you to not pull guard, but grapple to gain a dominant position either on top or on their feet and punch your opponent in the face.

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#354033 - 08/04/07 08:03 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

For the best training move to Vegas and train at Xtreme Couture. If that is not an option learn bjj/submission grappling from a wrestling perspective, which will teach you to not pull guard, but grapple to gain a dominant position either on top or on their feet and punch your opponent in the face.





EXCELLENT advice! This is exactly the way I believe that folks should be training. This is the approach that I believe in and have used for years.

I see the guard being used a LOT in gi-style jiu-jitsu in an almost flamboyant manner. Thats only natural when you consider how many handles you have to hold onto with material designed not to rip. It fosters a notion of security when playing guard and is the reason why so many BJJ guys fighting vale tudo would voluntarily pull it.

Gotta work for top, using the guard as an active defensive position, disengaging when at first possible.

Just thought I'd throw my own two cents in.



-John

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#354034 - 08/07/07 04:05 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: JKogas]
JimmySmith Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
I don't exactly see how the guy was a Kung Fu expert. The BJJ fighter looked more convincing at kicking than the Kung Fu guy, who not only sent out nice slow kicks that were checked, didn't use his hands at all, had an oddly long stance and delivered the lamest attempt at an elbow in the history of mankind. Not exactly what I would say a conclusive video, only showed how a BJJ could tackle and then whup the lamers butt

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#354035 - 08/07/07 06:42 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: JimmySmith]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: North Carolina
Part of the problem Jimmy is that when dealing with a KNOWN grappler, people will often change their delivery dramatically.

Imagine a boxer fighting a person who he knew was a boxer and another whom he knew to be a grappler.

Don't you think you might see a change in his approach regarding each one? Wouldn't he probably appear to look much different with his overall structure against the grappler? Just some food for thought.


-John

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#354036 - 08/10/07 11:40 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: VietPanda]
Morpheus Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
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Loc: New York
What was that?

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#354037 - 08/11/07 05:05 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Morpheus]
VietPanda Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 103
Awesome! I found two videos I found quite interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDnnmENhJp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTIrehTIGOA

Enjoy!
_________________________
~Viet Panda~

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#354038 - 08/18/07 01:27 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: VietPanda]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
go learn some grappling and then come back next time
Those Shamrock clips are great
I like how he breaks down the movements so that he/you can really understand whats going on
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#354039 - 08/18/07 03:41 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH VID [Re: VietPanda]
Alabama_Samurai Offline
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 34
First of all, that's Royce Gracie. Not many martial artists can beat him anyway. Also, Royce Gracie is not a very aggressive fighter. He's excellent at strategy. He looks for you to make a mistake and when you do he takes you to his world. About the only thing I can think of that this gung fu guy could have done to stand a chance would be to make it appear as if he's making an opening in order to draw Royce into a position where he can land a hard knee to his chest or face. But, like I said, that's Royce Gracie. Very few men could beat him anway.

And that comment about it being almost impossible for someone trained in only striking to not being taking down by a practitioner of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu isn't entirely true. Not all BJJ practitioners have much experience.

I believe in being prepared. I believe that ground fighting is a very important part of figting. Do I believe the saying that most fights go to the ground? YES and NO. Most of the fights I have seen start with pushing, then an exchanging of blows, and then sometimes it ends up on the ground. Most people in real situations don't immediately try to take you to the ground. So, I don't believe that groundfighting is THE most important part of fighting. But, I'm not going to deny it's importance, nor it's effectiveness in disabling your opponent of his ability to hit you. It's sort of like a kingsnake taking on a much larger snake. The kingsnake will immobilise the other snake and then make the kill. Of course a kingsnake would probably be killed by a kingcobra. So the kingsnake's way isn't the only way. A kingcobra will evade and then strike. Even mongooses have a hard time with them. They often end up dead. And in case some of you are wondering, kingsnakes are NOT immune to venom. They merely have a tolerance and venom from non-North American snakes might be beyond their tolerance. Oh, and the last part about the venom has no symbolism. Only the part about the kingsnake "grappling".

Ok, I probably rambled on in this post, but I've got a mad case of insomnia. So, bare with me here.
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#354040 - 08/19/07 03:13 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Alabama_Samurai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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someones been up watching too much animal planet
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#354041 - 08/19/07 03:16 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: IExcalibui2]
Alabama_Samurai Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 34
Quote:

someones been up watching too much animal planet




Don't tell me you can't see the symbolism between a kingsnake and a practitioner of BJJ. lol

I tend to use metaphors quite often.
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#354042 - 08/19/07 06:53 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: Alabama_Samurai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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hahaha I see, I've just never seen anyone go so far into the animal metaphor to describe their habitat and teeth brushing habits. anyway, off topic.

bottom line, if you get a run in with a grappler, try to stay on your feet and I would say no closer than clinch range (most MA out there have some kind of techniques where you are able to grab the guy and such). If you can get the grappler to play your striking game then, you're fine.

Once you hit the ground...well lets hope you can land a lucky strike that can disable him before he does anything. That or get your butt whipped and then go and learn yourself some grappling techniques to keep it from happening.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#354043 - 08/22/07 01:41 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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I've heard people say "boxers are blind from the waste down".
I don't personally believe this to be true, but it is a good theory and definitely applies to non-comp level boxers.

In the same right, grapplers do not often understand the art of distancing.

Just some stuff to consider.

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#354044 - 08/22/07 03:14 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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boxers can dance, so not exactly blind..and you would have to get past the fists first.

True the aim of grappling is closing the distance, while strikers I guess try to keep the distance farther. But what happens when you pushed into a wall? No more room to dance. Strikers need room, and sometimes thats not a luxury that they are given...unless they make it.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#354045 - 08/22/07 01:46 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: MattJ]
ShangTsung Offline
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Registered: 02/16/06
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Good Kung Fu does contain grappling however there is much less emphasis on it as usually striking is more effective, especially if you face more then one opponent at a time, with multiple opponents grappling becomes almost useless.

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#354046 - 08/22/07 02:15 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: ShangTsung]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

however there is much less emphasis on it as usually striking is more effective




That statement is your opinion, not fact. Either one is only effective as the user (and situation) is.
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#354047 - 08/22/07 02:17 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Right. If pushed against a wall, you can use your structure to turn. This, if done right, will open enough space to fire a punch or palm strike directly up to the carroted (sp?) cavity thus throwing the opponent's head back and creating more space. If this doesn't work, you've still got elbows and knees to throw out there. Or sweeps - WC, Judo or otherwise.
For WC people, there are a lot of techniques in the 2nd form that address this very issue. Again, it isn't taught the same everywhere.

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#354048 - 08/22/07 02:29 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: MattJ]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Well I wouldn't say striking is always more effective. But to his credit he did add something about multiple attacker scenarios. In that situation I'd have to agree. Getting tied up with one person while there are still others to deal with is generally a bad idea. IMHO

I'm sure there are some remote situations where really good grapplers can use stand up techniques to maybe keep one person in control and block the others; but I still see it as more dangerous than the hit and run striking methods. Just too many chances for getting overwhelmed when you're locked up with even one person even for a short time.
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#354049 - 08/22/07 02:51 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: JMWcorwin]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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or the grapplers can steven seagal it and toss their opponents into tables and cabinets..anything to break furniture. Wrestling techniques are pretty dangerous ("pro" wrestling techniques). Who would get up from a big slam into a table?? or a DDT?? Or the 3 slaps to the chest....
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#354050 - 08/22/07 02:57 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: IExcalibui2]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
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Well,

We were talking about BJJ techniques not aikido. Sure you can push people into objects or each other and keep moving, but that's not the same as grappling with them. And, btw, when you pick that guy up to slam him on a table... what's to stop his friends from beating the snot out of you with bottles, chairs, pool balls/cues, projectiles of any kind, knives in the back, etc? You have your whole body and all your attention on that one person. That leaves you open to get stomped by the rest of the group.

Or maybe your whole post was in jest? Sarcasm? If so, sorry. It doesn't translate well in type.
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#354051 - 08/22/07 05:02 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Best post ever.

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#354052 - 08/22/07 08:04 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: ShikataGaNai]
AndrewGreen Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Quote:


In the same right, grapplers do not often understand the art of distancing.

Just some stuff to consider.




Most grapplers train both takedowns and takedown defence against people that are very good at both. Most Kung Fu practitioners do not.

Who do you think will be better at controlling range?
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#354053 - 08/23/07 02:01 AM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: AndrewGreen]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
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Loc: Bellingham, WA
Depends on what the 'range' is, dunnit?
There really are only two ranges at the end of the day - within the range of contact and outside of it.

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#354054 - 08/23/07 04:11 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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yea I kind of forgot this is specified BJJ thread, which I guess I cant say much as most of the things that I've known and encountered from BJJ are ground oriented. At school the club hasnt done (not sure if they will) randori from stand up, it always starts on the knees. So hard to say.

In terms of slams, the best kinds would be the ones where you dont fall down with the guy. But you would have to move around to gain yourself a good position (in terms of the guy and his buddies) in order to do so. Aikido randori would probably be the best thing to describe it. But like you said, this isnt about Aikido, its BJJ.

But Mr. AndrewGreen here brings up the point that BJJ (and grapplers) train for take downs and take down defense, while their kungfu counterparts do not train in either one. And in order to score your take down you must also learn to pass the strikes or guard of your opponent. And though it pains me to use him as an example, Royce Gracie has demonstrated that he learned to pass a striker's guard to get the take down many times. And once the grappling starts, I believe the grappler has the advantage.

So its either 2 choices: learn grappling or be really quick with your feet and hands to avoid or strike the grappler down before he clinches up with you.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#354055 - 08/23/07 05:51 PM Re: What to do if grappled by BJJ fighter? - WITH [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
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I favor the latter, but only because my interests lie predominantly in self defense and not ring fighting. I think as a striker you can train to fight grapplers and stay on your feet - you just have to continually reality check what you're doing and admit to yourself it won't work against everybody. But we can all be beaten no matter what we train, yeah?

Sidenote - is anyone familiar with Carlson Gracie Sr's form of BJJ? The old man used to say it was "standy-uppy", meaning that the point was to get to your feet even if you're in the throes of a ground fight. He has a very interesting take on the clinch as well - and he did a now infamous seminar with Sam Kwok because he loved the striking elements of wing chun.
Check it out:
http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Produc...storysingle=YES

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