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#353659 - 07/30/07 12:33 PM Style based response... or situation based?
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I've been pondering this for a couple of weeks and want some other perspectives.

It seems to me that self defense scenarios, if constructed like a flow chart, should have a basic FIRST question. The question is:

Does the situation demand ESCAPE or RESTRAINT?

An ESCAPE situation is one that you remain in increasing danger every moment that you linger. Your main objective is to flee, exit, leave, at the earliest possible moment. An example is a mugging, a barroom assualt, etc. Your response is basically whatever it takes to disable the assailant and make an exit. But putting the guy into a submission hold is not a good choice because you only have control of the bad guy. You don't have control of the situation around you.

A RESTRAINT situation is one where you are obligated (for whatever reason) to restrain the bad guy. Examples are often law enforcement related, such as a resisting prisoner. It could also be a drunk boss, friend or family member. The situation is that striking and disabling responses are not appropriate. But any submission technique probably is appropriate. You install it, he taps and you back off just a skosh. He's under control and help is there, or moments away.

My purpose in posing this is a suspicion that it may often be a question NOT asked in reality. In reality, I suspect that training style may simply over-ride, and the response becomes more of what you are familiar with than based on the situaition. This means if you are a grappler, your response is.... grappling. If you are a striker, your response is striking. Response from the style rather than the situation.

Still, I think striker based people will instinctively know that they should not "hurt" family and friends, and feel a strong aversion to doing so. The risk of misapplication might be quite small.

But what about grappling based people. Is there a significant risk of just being trapped in style "default" and pushing a grappling (RESTRAINT) response into an EXIT situation? If your most common sparring response to a striker is to shoot in and wrap him up, could this be a problem at the wrong time?

Our style is striker based with maybe 15% grappling. What got me thinking about this is that have often finished a throw with an arm lock - as a routine training procedure. We've done it so much that we find ourselves crouched there with the lock, even though the we just kicked the guy in the groin, busted his jaw and twisted his head off. That just didn't make sense and we've started eliminating the arm lock. The surprising thing is how hard it is to break that sequense.

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#353660 - 07/30/07 01:05 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: Joss]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you know the saynig "you fight how you train", i think a problem arises when you conclude that the basic slybus of a style must change to accomadate the reality that of self defence.

if you have enough influance to change teh way things are tought where you are then go for it, don't stay the same just cause teacher says so. and if its not posible , then a change of scenery may be in order.

i think you raise a good point as well. its something all self defence based styles should ask themselves "is this self defence? or filler to keep students paying dues?" the answer is your own to come up with. i do feel tho, that there is plenty of filler in our world today. i have almsot given up asking questions to some of the higher ranks. i often get somethign along the lins of "if you don't like it, then leave" and thats a fair answer...i guess, kinda stand off-ish though. HIDING SOMETHING SENSEI!!!

2 arms and 2 legs, and fully explained training practices that reflect the way it things are. however, i guess the ammount of bs floating around does reflect whats out there to.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#353661 - 07/30/07 06:22 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: student_of_life]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
My opinion is, it's relatively easy to escape. You do this by moving your feet and running away. That doesn't take striking to accomplish in the majority of cases (grappling either, for that matter). It often only takes the will to leave. In other words, before your opponent has engaged you (has a HOLD of you) you run while you can.

If you CAN'T run, it probably means that your opponent has a hold of you. In that case, you're already grappling. So have a grappling game to answer that.

If you need to RESTRAIN someone, you again need a grappling game.

Pretty simple, imo.


-John

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#353662 - 07/30/07 08:53 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: Joss]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Joss,
first of all, the best way to not need any response at all is to put distance between you and the situation. If you can escape without confrontation, do that first, and then worry about "responses".

Now, with "fighting" or "restraint" as the next options, you can understand why I picked jujutsu as my art. It has plenty of locks, pins, restraints, and other techniques that will disable or hold someone in a harmless position without necessarily putting them into intensive care. When good, old drunk "Uncle Harry" pinches one of the girls on the butt, I don't need him spending six days in the hospital , but need techniques that will "discourage" that behavior . "Stand up" jujutsu has plenty of those, along with the striking and restraining techniques you seek. You just need to find a style of jujutsu that suits you.

Years ago, I would have recommended Judo as that art, but it is now practiced so much as a wrestling sport that it's lost a lot of its "self defense" flavor, and most of the schools don't even teach the atemi (striking) side of it any more... which you still need as a self defense skill, regardless of how skilled you are in your pins and restraints.

How you fight is, indeed, how you will respond in a "fighting situation", but jujutsu allows a lot of different responses to the same "stimulus". While the "advertised" skills of stand up jujutsu are usually understood as "wrist grabs and collar grabs", most of the training I've done has been against punches, kicks, grabs, grips, and a dozen different other methods of attack. Many of the responses are benign as far as causing injury, but still diffuse the situation and restrain or pin the opponent in an untenable position.

By using different methods of restraint, off-balancing, pain, and "locked joints", it's not all that difficult to put someone into a position where they don't want to continue the fight, even when released. Like a bee-sting, if you sting someone doing the technique, they won't want to mess with the bee any further... By putting them into positions that hurt, leave them helplessly off balance, etc. you can "undo their will to fight" pretty quickly... and if necessary, you can step it up to the next level and actually do some damage.

I actively did judo for 35 years+, and absolutely loved doing groundwork, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if you're on a gravel parking lot, it's not as soft as those mats you're used to working on... or that concrete sidewalk, which doesn't give like those mats... so "grappling" needs to be learned from the standing position as well as on the ground. Even grappling out in my yard was a lot more "stunning" to fall on than the dojo mats, so in self defense, you need to understand where the changes in your arts take place. Stand-up jujutsu is not affected by those things as much, so as a self defense, it has some advantages.

If you do "striking arts" (karate, boxing, kung fu, etc.) you can go directly into stand up jujutsu from your blocking and punching, and also utilize your pressure point training to distract and disable an attacker. If you make your "stand up" an aiki-style of jujutsu, you can turn the techniques into as dynamic a defense as you need.

I hate to hear you're getting rid of your arm locks... they're a good way to discourage somebody from hitting... especially if you've just done all those things you mentioned to them already. Usually, I stopped fighting after getting kicked in the cajones or having a neck twist applied and getting a broken jaw... I know, I'm just a wuss... ... but the armlock gives you "continuing control" of the situation... just make it hurt. Then, the attacker's mind goes to his elbow or wrist, rather than to his will to fight.

What you do isn't nearly as important as moving effectively, and smoothly... and keeping yourself in control of the situation. If you can smoothly move out the door, and leave the trouble behind, you've done well. If you have to hold the attacker and wait for the cops... that works too. It just takes more than one tool to fight, and if you have a well-filled toolbox, you can get the job done without getting yourself or anybody else killed in the process.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#353663 - 07/31/07 08:29 AM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: wristtwister]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Quote:

You install it, he taps and you back off just a skosh. He's under control and help is there, or moments away.




I realize this is but a small part of your post, but what if "he" isn't trained and doesn't have a clue about the "tap out" we all use so often?
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#353664 - 07/31/07 08:45 AM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: jpoor]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I realize this is but a small part of your post, but what if "he" isn't trained and doesn't have a clue about the "tap out" we all use so often?




Then "he" will get a broken arm/leg or choked out.

Everybody knows "STOP! HOLY SH1T YOU'RE BREAKIN MY FRACKING ARM!!!!!!!!"
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#353665 - 07/31/07 12:22 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: Joss]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

I've been pondering this for a couple of weeks and want some other perspectives.

It seems to me that self defense scenarios, if constructed like a flow chart, should have a basic FIRST question. The question is:

Does the situation demand ESCAPE or RESTRAINT?




Neko456 - I agree with most of the posters what I'd try to do is sense the severity of the situation is it a non viloate drunk thats a troublesome family member, is it a fantic friend. Then I restrain and escape or vice versa. But I think in any of these situation you should flow into both a R and E, then try to de-esculate. If help/family members are around to help. Rarely do you want to try to restrain someone like a cop, they have too many rules to play by and usually help on the way.

In a situation where you don't know or U know he dangerous and the aggressor and his buddy come up toward you on the blind side. As the 1st guy reaches/punches toward you, You deflect strike his eyes, or jab to the point of the nose would do almost the same thing, kick his knee cap toward outward (so it bends abnormally), lock his arm and push/throw him into his buddy or at his buddies feet, then run. So you countered his movement, E and then R, leaving his buddy holding his parner or both on the ground. As you take flight.

All this to say that in a somewhat controlled (a known aggressor) enviornment you R or E and take f or R then E or de-escalate. In a unknown aggressive situation you avoid/skip out, Counter, roll it into R & E or E & R and take flight.

I suggest never either or, alway both to the degree it takes to handle the situation. Use both all the time flow from E to R to flight all the time, leave noting to chance.

Domestics can turn deadly.
my 2 cent.

Mattj you are right nobody knows to tap on the street, if he is tapping you better know that he ready to quit before you let him go.


Edited by Neko456 (07/31/07 12:25 PM)
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#353666 - 07/31/07 01:18 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: jpoor]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Quote:

Quote:

You install it, he taps and you back off just a skosh. He's under control and help is there, or moments away.




I realize this is but a small part of your post, but what if "he" isn't trained and doesn't have a clue about the "tap out" we all use so often?




Pretty much like Matt said. That was intended just as "lingo" to picture the situation. Squeals, whimpering, begging - all these would be accepted as well. My point was just that the joint would be restrained but not broken.

JKogas
"If you CAN'T run, it probably means that your opponent has a hold of you. In that case, you're already grappling. So have a grappling game to answer that."

This is a perfect example for what I'm getting at. Think of a lapel grab. For a grappler-heavy individual it may mean that you are now grappling, as you just said. For us, we're working responses to lapel grabs that give us disengagement and an option to exit. And I'm trying to exit - not reverse the hold. If I don't have control of the situation around me, this has to be done with smooth, rapid, efficience. In that situation time saved is safety gained.

Take a headlock and maybe I'm starting to better see where this goes. To me, a grappler, by nature, sort of "burrows on into the guy". That's how I see their strategy. To the extent that I grapple his jewels with one hand, twist his thumb with the other, break the hold and elbow him in the face - I'm grappling too. But, to the contrary, my goal is to break out/neutralize to the point I can exit.

Being on the bottom of a "straddle and pound" situation is similar. We focus on dumping the guy to one side and rolling out the other - then stand and exit. Yet I imagine a grappler would be trying to reverse the holds but remaining on the ground with the guy.

It could be that I just misunderstand grappling. My point is that these all show two entirely different courses to take - and it's the situation that says which is needed (restraint or exit), not the style you happen to prefer.

Wristtwister
Interesting that older jujitsu offered so much diversity of use. The bad behavior of "Uncle Harry" was just what I was getting at, where it might leave a pure striker sort of at a loss. Toss in some atemi and you're well ramped up for Bad Bad LeRoy Brown as well. If you put someone in ikkyo, what happens to the elbow depends a lot on whether the hand holds a box cutter - or only pinched sister Sue.

The problem comes if you train soooo much in the sister Sue mode that you find yourself automatically there with the box cutter too - and maybe another one coming out in the hand of the guy behind you. Not a good time to be doing a submission technique.

"I hate to hear you're getting rid of your arm locks... they're a good way to discourage somebody from hitting... especially if you've just done all those things you mentioned to them already (kicked the guy in the groin, busted his jaw and twisted his head off)."

We aren't getting rid of them. We're trying to balance when to apply them, and when not to. This is opposed to just letting this aspect be so MUCH of a single scenario training reflex. And that's the point I'm trying to make with all this. I feel there is a logic flaw in breaking someone down to the point of injury - and THEN restraining them. Or... restraining them, when you should have broken them down and got the hell out of the location.

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#353667 - 07/31/07 02:13 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It could be that I just misunderstand grappling.






The 'burrowing into' the opponent isn't just a blind, thoughtless response. It is to break the opponent's hold. It also sets up superior position for escapes and submissions. I can see where people get that impression, though. Groundfighting can be very opaque to those that don't train it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#353668 - 07/31/07 03:25 PM Re: Style based response... or situation based? [Re: MattJ]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Quote:

Quote:

It could be that I just misunderstand grappling.






The 'burrowing into' the opponent isn't just a blind, thoughtless response. It is to break the opponent's hold. It also sets up superior position for escapes and submissions. I can see where people get that impression, though. Groundfighting can be very opaque to those that don't train it.





Actually, whether it is a "blind, thoughtless response" is the core question here. What I'm suggesting is that it very well might be so, though perhaps not as you intended.

My use of "thoughtless" here is in the sense of a highly skilled practitioner who has reached the level of training that his actions are reflex. This is the level of training to which martial artists aspire: technique flows from unconscious skill gained from years of practice. So - rather than a negative attribute, "thoughtless" is a positive attribute.

The important word here, however, is "blind". This is the pitfall of applying the "thoughtless skills" in the wrong time and place - simply because that's the way you always trained. This is the case of unintended tactical flaws threaded INTO unconcious response through repetitive practice.

EXAMPLES
1. Always police your brass rather than reloading the pistol.
2. Always hand the knife back to your training partner in practice.
3. Always bend down to help yor partner up after you throw him.

Most all of us have seen these type of training flaws highlighted at some time or another within the "fight as you train" paradigm. I'm just taking it into another corner.

Wouldn't a highly skilled grappler find it easy to slip into a poor self defense choice, by reflexively ("blindly") falling into a grappling solution where rapid resolution and exit were paramount?


Edited by Joss (07/31/07 03:27 PM)

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