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#353006 - 07/27/07 10:01 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: iaibear]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA

Tough to explain, Matt, because I lack the words to even make a sensible case. How can a person judge "sloppy" when they do not even recognize "correct"? I sure do not...

Good point. You know how we keep telling people they can't get it right strictly training through tapes? That's because there's no one there to point out the sloppiness.

#353007 - 07/27/07 10:10 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Matt:

The process instantly becomes reaching for ones primitive/primal instinct whatever that particular instinct might be rather than attempting to use, to learn to use a new technique. IMO, a foolish training method...

SLOPPY can work, but the object is never to be sloppy, now is it!? Sloppy vs. technically perfect, perfect will do far more & faster.


#353008 - 07/27/07 10:28 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: iaibear]
Joss Offline

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Looks like we need to accept the difference between training the techniques and the actual use of techniques. (Furthermore, "use" is just a moment in time, while training is an endless process.)

Training seeks perfection in techniques, hoping technique will be adequate in the moment of use.

"* Is sloppy technique neccessarily inferior or ineffective?"

The answer depends on what it is measured against.

If it is measured by "use", this means an opponent. If you survive, or win, then your technique was, by definition, superior and effective because it's measured against your opponent's (as long as it was your technique that prevailed and not pure luck - like the bad guy has a heart attack).

But if it is measured against a lofty training goal, sloppy technique will always be inferior.

"Effective" or "ineffective", though, are tests of use more than training. You can have real sloppy technique in training, but if you are only challenged by the black belts from the day-care section, it might be plenty good.

#353009 - 07/27/07 12:34 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Joss]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Technically perfect technique is never ineffective, it always hits its mark and does what it was intended to do. An ineffective technique is never a good technique.

#353010 - 07/27/07 01:11 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
I think if you take a person that is training any art seriously you would find the same thing. Lets imagine that after a championship fight the victorious combatant reviews the videotape. The commentators, the fans and the other fighters see a big wild looping left, thrown when the fighter was back on his heels, that happened to catch his opponant on the chin flooring him. It "got the job done". The commentators knew it sloppy, the crowd knew it was sloppy. In his heart even he knew it was sloppy. It really doesn't matter though he is the champion. How does he feel about it?

The truth is (I believe) that in our hearts we don't just want to win but win in a certain way. We would know that it could have been different. It doesn't change the statistic.

If a person is training for any venue seriously and sincerely they will find the balance of discipline and freedom (Drill/Aliveness) that will comtribute to their opportunity to be effective. In the long run I do not believe winning is enough, however it comes.

Who would you rather be

Tank Abbot or Royce Gracie?

#353011 - 07/27/07 01:19 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Oldman, actually, Tank Abbot lost more than he won. Your comparison is unfair. You need to find two people with comparable records to make this sort of comparision.

#353012 - 07/27/07 01:50 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: oldman]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Royce Gracie most definitely!!

Considered a big guy, most demonstration while coming up I was used as the attacker. Having not worked with me before I notice every technique started with a distraction weather it was a strike, knee once imbalanced then the technique. Until they knew I could flow.

It needs to be trained when to resistance. In training as mentioned, it hurts personal and class development.
Yes another one of my stories, used as an example.

I remember teaching a class of huge Rednecks cowboys (not my words, their label) 5'11"- 6'8" 250lbs - 300lbs bouncers/security. At the begining of this class I informed them not to resistance at 1st, after learning we will test the results.

As you can guess with all this testoroone most didn't listen we had 2 ankle injuries (1 broken fighting falling) and 4 or 5 wrist&elbow joint sprains. After answering certain challenges (I didn't injury any one of them just scared them) and these self inflicted injuries they started to learn. Several wrote or shook my hand later saying how well these techniques worked.

But from what I've seen resistance before you know what you are doing will get the ignorant hurt. Strength and power falling weridly over the ankle locked to the ground, no ankles that strong!!!

Thats pretty sloopy to me. Maybe sloopy teaching but how many times can you warn and caution. It was me and 15 SP, only 2 associates had any training in this group.

#353013 - 01/29/08 09:52 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Bump for the new folks!
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#353014 - 01/30/08 08:08 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

* Does too much resistance/alive training impart sloppiness?

Not at all as long as the stages were correct up to the alive training and the teaching is good. As opposed to just going at it, which would be.


* Is sloppy technique neccessarily inferior or ineffective?

Please vote and explain your position.

Yes and no. If I were against a physically superior opponent,but he had sloppy technique, I would have to make up for it by having a much bigger margin in regards to good technique.

The bigger they are , the better your technique better be.

It's like, who would win a 5' 3" 135lb competetive mma guy or a 6'5" 225lb brawler? Obviously the smaller guy's technique would have to be vastly superior.

The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#353015 - 01/30/08 11:20 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Matt:

It ALL matters.

The only question is whether I can make it (what I do) work.... If I get too casual, too careless because I want to get to eyebrow waxing range ... all fine and good until I meet someone who has practiced sealing all those moats and drawbridges, watches for our defense flaws.


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