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#352986 - 07/25/07 02:02 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: TroTro]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

May anyone provide a solid definition of "sloppy technique" please? It seems like everyone has his own perception of "sloppy technique"...




Now we're getting somewhere. My POV is that if it works, it wasn't really that sloppy, was it?
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#352987 - 07/25/07 02:44 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
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#352988 - 07/25/07 03:02 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: oldman]
MattJ Offline
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Interesting, Mark. Obviously, Pollack had quite an "effect" on reviewers and the public that saw his works. I think I understand that his paintings were representing the action of painting, not neccessarily painting anything in particular. In that sense, Pollack was not even 'sloppy', as he intended to create that particular effect.

If I draw a crappy stick figure, and you recognize it to be a human, was it effective?

Similar thing I am discussing here. If someone throws a crappy hook punch, and it KO's the opponent, does it matter how sloppy it was?
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352989 - 07/25/07 03:10 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Joss Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"Similar thing I am discussing here. If someone throws a crappy hook punch, and it KO's the opponent, does it matter how sloppy it was?"

Nope. Not in that encounter. What matters is what follows.

On realizing you totally lucked out, do you

a. check off hook punches as "done" within your training program?

Or

b. dive back in with renewed vigor, promising never to depend so purely on luck again?

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#352990 - 07/25/07 04:13 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Nope. Not in that encounter. What matters is what follows.




Interesting. So it would appear that sloppiness is situational, and not a concrete standard?

Quote:

b. dive back in with renewed vigor, promising never to depend so purely on luck again?




This would certainly be MY choice, and probably everyone's that reads this forum, too.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352991 - 07/25/07 04:14 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
To quote Pollack...

Quote:

Technique is just a means of arriving at a statement. There is no accident, just as there is no beginning or ending. Sometimes I lose a painting but I have no fear of changinging or destroying the image because a painting has a life of it's own I try to let it live.




Pollack studied under Thomas Hart Benton, One of America's best know traditional regional realists. Pollacks painting was seen by the general population as sloppy and undisciplined, even revolutionary. Pollacks innovation seemed all the more dramatic by it's contrast to Bentons orthodoxy. Pollack eliminated subject and expressed the "aliveness" inherent the medium.

Critics from both camps considered the other artists work "Crappy Hooks"

Two artists with different styles attemping to make statement, to communicate, reacting to the other. Both loved and hated, Both in museums, both effective, and both dead.

Critics from both camps considered the other artists work "Crappy Hooks" Decades later we are still talking about their techniques there influence and their art. Pretty effective either way.
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#352992 - 07/25/07 06:03 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

John,

If you are smokin the crack you need to stop, it you are not, then you need to start.





Damned if I do and damned if I don’t there bro!


Quote:

My orginal statement was defining the difference between, drilling and application, so your passionate argument, is against a strawman.





Nah, it’s good for the record if nothing else.


Quote:


But for the record, BJJ does practice "dead" drill you call them. At least the guys I have seen do.




Well, I can’t explain away anything that you’ve seen guys do. I mean, there’s no way I can comment on that, but what I will say is that there is such a thing as “progressive resistance”. Some really old school guys will have folks working techniques in a pattern. THAT would be what we call the “introduction” phase. That typically doesn’t last long and in fact, I tend to use more aliveness when having folks practice their techniques. I do this through flow drills that have both sides presenting “energy”, timing and motion. No one is just sitting still while their partners train. Hard to explain what I mean, so I won’t, lol.

Its like this, you could get a grappling dummy and practice all of your techniques. That would be “dead” training. And you know something? It wouldn’t matter HOW much you practiced them, you’d still lose to a white belt who had more alive practice. Every time. No question about it.


Quote:


Now I still believe you need to learn some muscle memory in a dead or low resistance environment so you can learn the basic body concepts that will become your foundation. And if you skip that step, you miss out on small but critical lessons that can have a big impact later on.





Agreed, but low resistance doesn’t mean its not alive. Progressive resistance is very much alive. It just requires something in the way of an alive partner working with you. A “dead fish” for a partner won’t help a person improve a great deal. There ARE some warm up exercises that can be done and a few such drills that may help to make movements a little smoother - but these will NOT develop the “skill to do” in a live grappling match. The WON’T develop your ability to grapple and be functional with those techniques. That always requires aliveness in drilling and sparring.


Quote:


This in no way says "aliveness" is bad, not at all, but deadness has it's place as well.





I don’t know that “deadness” has as MUCH of a place. To a small degree, there is learning a movement. But again, that comes with progressive resistance. That “deadness” would amount to about 5% of one’s total training time. Maybe. Like I said, I use methods that have the qualities of timing, motion and energy in place just about all the time, even with beginners. I see their games improving quite a bit - provided that they train consistently and are willing to put the necessary time in. That’s important regardless though and is just common sense.


Quote:


Sometimes I think we just make up arguments to have reasons to yell at each other.




Of course we do. It wouldn’t be any fun if everyone agreed on everything would it?


-John

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#352993 - 07/25/07 06:22 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

A “dead fish” for a partner won’t help a person improve a great deal.




Well if you don't know the technique and are trying to learn a partner that resists isn't very helpful either.

But then all this deadness, aliveness stuff has me confused now anyway.

Maybe some examples for the feeble minded island people.

Would 1 step sparring be alive or dead?

Would a technique line be alive or dead?

Would 3 step sparring be alive or dead?

Kata? Alive or dead?

Basics in the air?

Tension Drills?

Light or slow speed sparring?

I guess I am trying to find out what drills you or anyone thinks are a waste of time.

-Kimo
_________________________
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#352994 - 07/25/07 06:35 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Methinks we're getting a bit off-topic here.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352995 - 07/25/07 06:46 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

*** A “dead fish” for a partner won’t help a person improve a great deal.***

Well if you don't know the technique and are trying to learn a partner that resists isn't very helpful either.





That’s why I keep mentioning that thing about progressive resistance. The “resistance” isn’t always all out. Sometimes it’s just movement. We are living people, not statues. Train with movement and you can fight people. Train without and you’ll be great - against statues.

Low speed, low level intensity is required. There is also what is thought of as the introduction phase where there is little to no energy at all. Again, it’s just that we don’t stay there very long. A few minutes to understand what you’re trying to accomplish and then it’s go time. That still doesn’t necessarily mean that people are just busting ass all over the place and going nuts. That wouldn’t be any better than “deadness”.


Quote:


But then all this deadness, aliveness stuff has me confused now anyway.





That’s because you need to experience what I’m saying instead of just reading about it. There is NO way on Gods earth that anyone will every be able to accurately convey what they are trying to explain on an internet forum that requires feeling and seeing to understand.


Quote:


Maybe some examples for the feeble minded island people.


Would 1 step sparring be alive or dead?





I would have to lean toward dead here for a few reasons. Chief among them would be the non continuous action. So technically, it wouldn’t be alive. I’m not saying that there aren’t some limited benefits to such a thing however. Just by definition, I can’t immediately say it’s an alive thing.


Quote:


Would a technique line be alive or dead?





Dead.



Quote:


Would 3 step sparring be alive or dead?





Dead again.


Quote:


Kata? Alive or dead?





Deader than a doornail.


Quote:


Basics in the air?





Dead. No resistance or relationship with a living partner or opponent. Same deal with kata.


Quote:


Tension Drills?





Dead. No more alive than say, bench pressing.


Quote:


Light or slow speed sparring?





Alive.


Quote:


I guess I am trying to find out what drills you or anyone thinks are a waste of time.

-Kimo





Keep in mind that progressive resistance, variable intensity are alive and, that some small amounts of time with absolutely no energy are beneficial to the student. It’s just a matter of proportion. I tend to limit the times in which a person is trying to practice without any partner moving, using realistic timing and energy. This does NOT mean sparring or simply fighting and competing with each other at every turn. It just means, not being that “dead fish” on the mats.




-John

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