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#352996 - 07/26/07 05:03 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: JKogas]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:

Train with movement and you can fight people. Train without and youíll be great - against statues.




You can't fight a statue! Haven't you seen Doctor Who lately?

I like progressive resistance approach. One chap in my class has a tendency to work as hard as he can against any technique before his partner has really had a chance to understand what it is they're trying to achieve (and this chap can pretty much make himself into a statue when he wants to). This tends to lead to a battle of strength, which he invariably wins (I should point out that he's a lovely bloke and not doing this maliciously or to show off) and this, in turn, leads to performing techniques badly because they haven't been learned correctly before the application.

I have problems far more rarely when there's a chance to examine the techniques first in air, then on a compliant 'opponent' and then with resistance.
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#352997 - 07/26/07 07:07 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I like progressive resistance approach. One chap in my class has a tendency to work as hard as he can against any technique before his partner has really had a chance to understand what it is they're trying to achieve (and this chap can pretty much make himself into a statue when he wants to). This tends to lead to a battle of strength, which he invariably wins (I should point out that he's a lovely bloke and not doing this maliciously or to show off) and this, in turn, leads to performing techniques badly because they haven't been learned correctly before the application.





That can be a very common thing that occurs when guys donít check their egos at the door while in addition to not understanding how to be a good training partner. It also shows inexperience or plain ignorance with the instruction and coaching.

I say this because these sorts of things have to be taught right along side of technique. A lot of people arenít instinctively born with the knowledge of how to be a good training partner. That often has a lot to do with ego issues, but itís also because guys just donít know any better sometimes.

If a guy is winning due to superior strength, think about what this is saying. One it says, he doesnít have adequate technical mastery. Two, is that he doesnít even realize that heís circumventing his own growth by relying on superior attributes to hit his techniques (like heís ALWAYS going to be the strongest guy in a fight, right?). Three, it says that the coach isnít aware of whatís going on or isnít adequately explaining why this isnít good for the guy, his partner, or anyone else. So, lots of bad things going on there.

Having methods in place to teach progressive resistance is important in that it sets the tone for the entire gym to follow. Isolation is another key aspect of training that provides an intermediate step between the learning of a technique and sparring.

Imagine how much LONGER training would take if you went straight from a sort dead drill (I say this because it happens) to sparring? It would take much more time to become proficient at itís use than if you were to add an intermediate stage of progressive resistance isolation drilling/sparring.

Thus Iím NOT saying that any dead, or rather, ďless aliveĒ training isnít beneficial. Iím just saying that the overwhelming majority of your time should be spent in isolation working to build technique using progressive resistance. Finish that session with free sparring/rolling and you have yourself an excellent training environment.


Quote:


I have problems far more rarely when there's a chance to examine the techniques first in air, then on a compliant 'opponent' and then with resistance.





Why couldnít you examine a technique with a partner instead of in the air? I mean sure, everyone does a few seconds of isolated ďairĒ practice. Shadow boxing, shadow wrestling and all of that sort of thing are beneficial as well. But you know, Iím not going to spend more than a couple of minutes at most on any such thing. It would merely be a waste of precious training time at the gym. If youíve only so much time to train, you have to make the most use of it.

Good training requires a live partner.

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#352998 - 07/26/07 07:13 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
interesting question Matt. answering you question of how you probably intended it: more often than not, what looks 'sloppy' IS effective.

nobody fights using 90 degree angles, picture-perfect 'stances' or with clairavoiyant timing. realistically, it's more like the Pollak painting Mark put up....a constant improvisation.

but not all people like Pollak's work. some may see it as too ad hoc, haphazard and random...eg criticisms like - 'a monkey could paint with similar depth'.

so the question to ask first is, do you train in your Art to improve your ability to improvise....or do you train to improve the pre-conceived notions of your Art's 'form' ?

AFTER that question, then you can ask if sloppy=effective with context. also you could ask does striving for non-sloppy necessarily mean ineffective?

separate thought:
someone who has never trained in any MA, learns how to fight from fighting in let's say, prison. let's also say he becomes effective at defending himself against guys looking for their next biotch. (that's about as 'live' learning as you can get, wouldn't you say?)

'Sloppy'? probably. 'effective'? well, his hypothetical butt isn't sore anymore. however, he's probably not going to win any MA tournys.

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#352999 - 07/26/07 07:39 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: JKogas]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:

Why couldnít you examine a technique with a partner instead of in the air? I mean sure, everyone does a few seconds of isolated ďairĒ practice. Shadow boxing, shadow wrestling and all of that sort of thing are beneficial as well. But you know, Iím not going to spend more than a couple of minutes at most on any such thing. It would merely be a waste of precious training time at the gym. If youíve only so much time to train, you have to make the most use of it.




That's about the size of it; the time I spent describing each aspect of the practice (in class) isn't necessarily the time we spend on it in life. Practising in air, for me, helps to cement the correct movement before trying it with a partner (which is one of the reasons I'm a fan of forms, but I imagine we'll have to agree to disagree on that one), but that's just how my brain works. It's this 'trying out' stage where excessive resistance is a problem. If it happens during free movement then the technique can be altered, but when focusing upon refining one particular movement it's something of a bind.

With regard to the person I mentioned before (I think I've created the wrong impression whilst trying to be brief; he does ease up if you're struggling), I could pull the same trick on him with regard to speed. I think, in both of our cases, the immediate reaction is simply due to our natural responses rather than any attempt to 'win.' We get there eventually and enjoy it on the way.
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#353000 - 07/26/07 07:49 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Ed Morris -

Quote:

nobody fights using 90 degree angles, picture-perfect 'stances' or with clairavoiyant timing. realistically, it's more like the Pollak painting Mark put up....a constant improvisation.




That is what I have noticed for the most part, as well.

Quote:

so the question to ask first is, do you train in your Art to improve your ability to improvise....or do you train to improve the pre-conceived notions of your Art's 'form' ?




Good point, Ed. I approach MA training from a fairly strict utilitarian POV, so questions of aesthetics are irrelevant to me.

Quote:

also you could ask does striving for non-sloppy necessarily mean ineffective?




Of course it does! J/K

No, and I never meant this to be a 'sloppy technique is effective' mainfesto. I do find value in refining technique to a high level, as you never know who you may be going up against. I am not debating that aesthetically excellent technique isn't better, just to what degree. But that appears to be related to the skill level of your opponent.

Quote:

separate thought:
someone who has never trained in any MA, learns how to fight from fighting in let's say, prison. let's also say he becomes effective at defending himself against guys looking for their next biotch. (that's about as 'live' learning as you can get, wouldn't you say?)

'Sloppy'? probably. 'effective'? well, his hypothetical butt isn't sore anymore. however, he's probably not going to win any MA tournys.






Thanks for ruining my breakfast, Ed.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#353001 - 07/26/07 08:29 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Good argument for practicing kata! In sparring or even a real fight, we only have to be better that day than the other person. In kata you strive for perfection.
_________________________

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#353002 - 07/26/07 08:30 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Those amongst us who instantly "groc" ("Stranger in a Strange Land" by Heinlein) seem to have a problem understanding those of us who do not groc. They learn by "doing" while the rest of us are still saying "doing what?" because the demo was too fast, complex or subtle to absorb quickly.
How can you practice something when you do not see/understand the fine points of an action that makes it work?
Standing there dumbfounded is the REAL waste of time. Real quotes:
"Don't think about it; DO it!" "Do what?"
"Did you see it that time?" "No."
"Did you see it THAT time?" "What am I supposed to be looking at?"
"ALL of it!"


Edited by iaibear (07/26/07 08:39 AM)

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#353003 - 07/26/07 08:36 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

Joss, Ironfoot -

I may not be wording the question properly. We often see fighters derided for "bad technique", even though they win. Of course, perfecting technique can help with the application. But is there a point of diminishing returns, where the technique is "good enough" to do the job, and further refinement is of less value?




I don't think so! First of all, I believe my karate is a martial ART. I'm not going to compete in the super-senior toughman division.

If you're really strong, you can get away with a lot, but where will that get you when you're older? Besides, I think that changing from 95% perfection to 97% yields a BIG dividend. The results of the technique as you approach 100% rise asymptotically. That's the only way a little master can KO a big goon.
_________________________

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#353004 - 07/26/07 08:48 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: iaibear]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

How can you practice something when you do not see/understand the fine points of an action that makes it work?
Standing there dumbfounded is the REAL waste of time. Real quotes:
"Don't think about it; DO it!" "Do what?"
"Did you see it that time?" "No."
"Did you see it THAT time?" "What am I supposed to be looking at?"
"ALL of it!"




Sorry, iaibear. I am not sure I understand what you mean there.

I was referring to sloppiness in action, not sloppiness in learning or teaching. Teaching should be as precise as possible, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#353005 - 07/26/07 07:39 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Tough to explain, Matt, because I lack the words to even make a sensible case. How can a person judge "sloppy" when they do not even recognize "correct"? I sure do not.

This is probably the wrong forum for venting, anyway.


Edited by iaibear (07/26/07 07:49 PM)

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